Easy river value bet?

[durron597]

I wasn't sure if he was slowplaying the nut flush or if he just sucked. I figure if he gives me river action then I'm beaten, so I checked behind. Stars $16 turbo.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1480)
MP1 (t1070)
MP2 (t1420)
CO (t3990)
Button (t1500)
SB (t1040)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t30, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t135) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, CO folds, BB folds, UTG calls t120.

Turn: (t435) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, UTG calls t280.

River: (t1235) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t1235

[gumpzilla]

I think I probably toss out a small bet here. There are a reasonable number of people at this level who will call with a Q, with two pair, or with a straight. Checking is fine, too, and is definitely the safe play; against opposition that I think is competent, it's what I'm doing here, usually.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I probably toss out a small bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when you get reraised all-in?

I think a check is the prudent play here.

[jd2b2006]

Durron,

Weird line villain took by betting the minimum on the flop, calling the raise, leading the turn for such a small amount, calling another substantial raise, and then checking the river. I would think the nut flush would make a nice value bet on the river thinking you would call since you've raised each street. I agree with your check on the river because I cannnot think of any reasonable hand that would pay you off on that board that you beat. If you did bet, a raise would make you throw up. I think you played it fine on each street. My only question is why the big raise on the turn? Was it for information, or did you think he was drawing with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif and you wanted to charge the draw?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

And when you get reraised all-in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's bad news, and that's why you need to gauge your opponent. Good opponents are either not going to call your bet or are going to raise you. Bad opponents will call you with garbage, and occasionally you'll get reraised. Against the latter type, you can sometimes extract a little extra value here on the river.

There's no doubt that it is often a good idea to check behind on the river because bets you make will gain you nothing when ahead and lose money when behind. However, I think it's possible to take this idea too far and fail to make value bets on the river against opposition that will call too much. It's a judgment call. I don't have a problem with checking here, but against some opponents I think betting is good.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
My only question is why the big raise on the turn? Was it for information, or did you think he was drawing with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif and you wanted to charge the draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit it on the head.

[Freudian]

Think you have to bet this river.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Think you have to bet this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet/fold or bet/call? I think I puke if I get raised here and I'm not sure what worse hands call me except a baby flush.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Think you have to bet this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet/fold or bet/call? I think I puke if I get raised here and I'm not sure what worse hands call me except a baby flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably bet/fold. But I think two pair/set/straight will pay you off much more often than higher flush will re-raise all in.

If I had the nut flush there is no way I would check this river.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

If I had the nut flush there is no way I would check this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even after an unknows $16 player *raised* the flop and turn?

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If I had the nut flush there is no way I would check this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even after an unknows $16 player *raised* the flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would throw out what looks like a blocking bet hoping for him to do it again. I would never check.

[Scuba Chuck]

A check here is the best line.

You've played this hand pretty strong, villain has to know you have a strong hand. There's an outside chance villain will call a bet if he has KT, otherwise he's folding. And you're only reraised if you're beat (well, that's not true, it's tough to assume our opponents aren't donkeys.)

Anyway, I think there is some showdown value here as well. Checking this shows your opponents you bet your hands strong. But once again, we're assuming these donkeys pay attention. On these low level tables, it's difficult to adjust to what is the "correct" play. But I think checking is the line you should get used to making as you move up in limits.

[Jay36489]

I think most players would check raise this river with the nut flush. It's weird that villian came out betting the turn after being raised on the flop, but I still would try and get money in here. If I lose flush over flush I consider it like losing set over set. Thats poker.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If I lose flush over flush I consider it like losing set over set. Thats poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush over flush is a lot easier to identify and prevent than set over set.

[microbet]

I think checking is fine, but I don't think most opponents play the turn and river the way he did with a better flush.

Also, at a lower buyin you have a pretty fair chance of getting a lot more of his chips if he has a straight or a lower flush or even 2-pair. Still, it's risky.

[Jay36489]

Well its not the exact same thing, no. But its very unlikely he has two hearts, much less two hearts, one bigger then yours( only two left). His leading turn bet makes me think he doesn't want to give you another heart on a free card. He payed off both of your raises before, so I think he calls a small value bet with a worse hand.

[Burno]

I've played a lot of these $16 turbos and I'm betting here.

His small bets are often a big heart trying to price himself in. So he'll probably fold if you bet, but two pair/straight/AQx will pay off.

I'd bet 3 or 400.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I think most players would check raise this river with the nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, that's for sure. Villain's line is scary and many opponents will check that river after the way the hand has played out. (Even someone with a non-nut flush such as the OP.)

But since I know that many other players would try to C/R the river with the nuts, I agree that Durron should check the river.

[jd2b2006]

n/m

[ilya]

I'm thinking you should check or push. I prefer checking...I think. I don't think you should bet small.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking you should check or push. I prefer checking...I think. I don't think you should bet small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a worse hand calling a push and a better hand isn't folding so why push?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking you should check or push. I prefer checking...I think. I don't think you should bet small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a worse hand calling a push and a better hand isn't folding so why push?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think plenty of worse hands may call as a push looks much more like a missed draw than a smaller bet. Moreover there's a tiny tiny chance you might get a K-high flush to fold.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I think plenty of worse hands may call as a push looks much more like a missed draw than a smaller bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...... plus wouldn't these hands blocking bet?

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover there's a tiny tiny chance you might get a K-high flush to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in a $16.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
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I think plenty of worse hands may call as a push looks much more like a missed draw than a smaller bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...... plus wouldn't these hands blocking bet?

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover there's a tiny tiny chance you might get a K-high flush to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in a $16.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you're probably right. I just really don't like a value bet there. Milking an extra 10% or whatever from the pot just doesn't seem worth the risk of a, losing extra when he has nuts and b, getting bluffed out -- a *disaster*

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh...... plus wouldn't these hands blocking bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

He already tried that on the turn... it didn't work out well for him.

I understand the arguments for checking, but I would think there's value in betting here at the $16 level.

edit: well, it wasn't exactly a blocking bet, but it sure feels like a Q protecting his hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: well, it wasn't exactly a blocking bet, but it sure feels like a Q protecting his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I make enough from Q's calling to make up for the times I get c/red?

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]

Do I make enough from Q's calling to make up for the times I get c/red?

[/ QUOTE ]

Likely hands you are ahead of:

Two pair, a Q, a straight, a busted flush draw.

Likely hands you lose to: K high flush

I would be baffled to see a nut flush from my opponent at showdown. They played their hand horrifically in that case. However, it is possible that you beat a K high flush into submission.

I probably couldn't bring myself to fold to a c/r, and that's a good reason not to make a small bet. In addition, even a small value bet is still a high % of our remaining stack.

Do you get paid off enough? I think most opponents don't get to the non-heart river with made hands you beat and then fold to a river bet. At low level SNGs, I expect this kind of play - I could be wrong of course.

As I think I said earlier, checking is a reasonable and good play, especially against quality opponents.