I hate this spot

[PokerBob]

Villain is unkkown to me.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero says [censored] and.....

[Lmn55d]

call down. Don't let him dump a lower pair than yours (or a bluff). This line minimizes the bets you put in against a J and ensures you get to showdown.

[B Nation]

I would raise and fold to a re-raise.

[Entity]

Uh, calls. It's not that hard. If you've got a read on what he bets, then it's an easier decision, but against unknowns, you're up against A6 and 75 and often random bluffs frequently enough to see a showdown.

Rob

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not that hard.


[/ QUOTE ]

oh

[TheMetetron]

Hero raises with only 1 over on board.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero raises with only 1 over on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

bet any turn, check behind on river?

[Surfbullet]

You have position, use it. Call down, and bet if checked to. He'll continue bets with bottom pair / lower PPs/ random bluffs, we save ourselves bets when behind a J and let him bleed off chips with weak holdings. If he gives up betting his weak pair we can bet and he'll call thinking we're trying to steal the pot.

If we were OOP (but then he couldn't donkbet us...whatever) then I'd raise + lead the turn + riv barring dangerous cards.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero raises with only 1 over on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

bet any turn, check behind on river?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise, he calls, and he calls the turn, you almost always have a value-bet on the river too.

Surf

[oreogod]

Man I dont know what line I like better...call down or raise, bet turn, bet river.

Anyway body have a preference or are both equally good.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]

If we were OOP (but then he couldn't donkbet us...whatever) then I'd raise + lead the turn + riv barring dangerous cards.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you are OOP, lets say...you bet, he raises...do u 3bet or call?

[Graham Handler]

What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

Surf

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. I was curious about the free showdown play myself but you cleared things up. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Haupt_234

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If we were OOP (but then he couldn't donkbet us...whatever) then I'd raise + lead the turn + riv barring dangerous cards.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you are OOP, lets say...you bet, he raises...do u 3bet or call?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I played the 5/10 i'd call this down against an unknown.

At the 10/20 I'll 3bet this. Flop raises mean so much less there - it could be any pair, reasonable draw, some not-so-reasonable draws, a "slowplayed" AK or AQ, or just some crap that the guy wants to bet you ot of the pot with. Because of this we're much more likely to have the best hand,and 3betting is good for our shania, people will be less likely to take shots at us(hopefully).

Surf

[Wynton]

I've been going back and forth about the best line.

But the idea that a certain line is best because it ensures a showdown - or a cheaper showdown - has been bothering me lately. I often find myself using the same logic. Yet, I think it's wrong to make that the overriding goal.

Having said that, I still don't know what line I prefer here against an unknown. I guess I prefer that the situation only arise against a "known." /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, calls. It's not that hard. If you've got a read on what he bets, then it's an easier decision, but against unknowns, you're up against A6 and 75 and often random bluffs frequently enough to see a showdown.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]


I think he's got a 6 often enough that you're leaving bets on the table by just calling.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]

But the idea that a certain line is best because it ensures a showdown - or a cheaper showdown - has been bothering me lately. I often find myself using the same logic. Yet, I think it's wrong to make that the overriding goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

In most games, yes. Maximizing EV by raising when we think our hand is best is critical. However, in my experience at the 10/20 encouraging bluffs can be worth just as much, or more, than a flop raise when we may have the best hand(certainly not every situation, but especially the more marginal ones). Players love to bluff here, and once started they rarely stop - I had a player bluff-4bet me on the flop with A4o UI last night, and he continuation-bet the turn and river.

Raising is great when the other player will call down with worse hands and 3bet with better ones. IMO calling is great when the other player will continue bluffing with nearly all worse hands, while he would have folded many of those worse hands if we maintained aggression.

Additionally, while the players are quite bluff-happy I don't relish the thought of calling down a flop 3bet and 2 more BB to get to SD - i'll be right sometimes, but I'd much rather have let him bet away his chips from the get-go, because he still 3bets a Jack and 2 pair etc.

Surf

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is unkkown to me.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero says [censored] and.....

[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG had a J then he would most likely attempt the check raise. Usually the donk bet signifys an under card to the top pair in this situation. The Hero is ahead, feel free to raise the flop.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[jdock99]

MOST people that have a pair of jacks or better will slowplay till the turn and checkraise you then or go for the checkraise on the flop. So the donkbet on the flop is a pretty good indication that your hand is good (against most players).

So the main decision you want to make is whether to raise the turn to try to get him out of the pot so he doesn't catch up on the river or whether to let him keep bluffing/betting the worst hand through the river. Against an unknown I would just call down. However, that is why it is nice to have a read on a player, so that you can raise the turn (to give your hand some modicum of protection) and know if you can safely fold fold to a turn 3bet or river donk bet.

[PokerBob]

....but in this case i didn't have one. I understand that a read would be helpful. If I had a choice, I'd have one. But I don't. My god, we don't get a read on every player. Get over it.

[Wynton]

Hey, mellow out. I'm not sure who you're replying too, but I was merely saying that the question is hard against an unknown.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
. I'm not sure who you're replying too,

[/ QUOTE ]

no one and everyone. nothing personal, but many have mentioned a read would be helpful. I had a read, it was "I have never seen this guy before in my life".

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, calls. It's not that hard. If you've got a read on what he bets, then it's an easier decision, but against unknowns, you're up against A6 and 75 and often random bluffs frequently enough to see a showdown.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]


I think he's got a 6 often enough that you're leaving bets on the table by just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. When I balance it out that he can have something like a 6, a bluff, or a Jack, I think it's fairly close between raising and calling. Your default 5/10 player isn't particularly aggressive but when I raise these flops I seem to get turn/river folds fairly often, but when I call down, I often seem to get 2.5BB out of a completely hopeless hand. It's not too often (though it does happen) that I get 3BB+ out of a worse hand on a flop like this.

I don't mind relinquishing control of the hand when I think my hand is best often enough to call (but maybe not often enough to raise) and when I really want to get a read on my opposition, which is often. I find that knowing what my opponents tend to lead into the PFR is probably the singlemost important thing for me to know in these games when donkbets reign supreme.

Rob

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I really liked what Oreogod was saying until you posted this. All three points are excellent, though I do wonder if we're able to get 88 &amp; 99 to fold if we raise the turn. I think there are at least some opponents who will dump them, and when they do its a major coup for us.

When opponent is behind (with a 6 or some other crap), we do manage to lose the pot for ourselves some of the time by taking the call-call-call line... so on longer consideration, I think calling the frop and raising the turn does sound worthy of consideration. With any piece of the board they're probably calling our turn raise, then checking to us on the river if they stay behind. We can bet, they'll think, call and there are are having protected our hand somewhat, and much of the time gained an extra BB.

Give what posters above have said about the tendency to check-raise with a Jack, I think we're ahead often enough to find a raise *somewhere* in this hand.

[TheMetetron]

Raise the flop, bet the turn, bet the river depending on board texture.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is my line.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

I'm ok with raising the flop...but I hate this line. I've tried it enough to know that what happens is the only hands that fold are those you really don't want to fold.

[Poldi]

I just call it down for the reasons already stated. Let him hang himself with a worse hand or lose the cheapest showdown possible.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Once in a while you will fold a better hand here, but it's rare. You will however fold a hand with outs reasonably often. Even a bluff likely has outs.

2. Without a read, this can be a dangerous line. I feel confident that if we get 3-bet folding is safef 99% of the time. It's not like we have an overpair here.

3. Sometimes a bluffer has outs we don't mind folding. And sometimes a bluffer will give up on the river. And sometimes he has a draw.

Krishan

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Once in a while you will fold a better hand here, but it's rare. You will however fold a hand with outs reasonably often. Even a bluff likely has outs.

2. Without a read, this can be a dangerous line. I feel confident that if we get 3-bet folding is safef 99% of the time. It's not like we have an overpair here.

3. Sometimes a bluffer has outs we don't mind folding. And sometimes a bluffer will give up on the river. And sometimes he has a draw.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Most hands villain can hold that are behind have 5-6 outs. On the turn the pot is 3.5BBs and we'd much prefer villain to put an extra, incorrect bet in on a big street than let him fold his beaten hand. In a bigger pot i'd agree with this argument.

2. If we get 3bet we are toast a very high %age of the time. This is not 100%, however, and whatever small % we are behind + times we would have improved costs us money.

3. True, sometimes a bluffer will give up on the river. He would have given up on the turn had we raised, so the point is moot. Sometimes he has a draw - I think these are more likely to bet the river because of the "it's the only way I can win the pot" mentality.

(4. We have position. If he gives up his bluff with bottom pair on the river, we value bet.)

Surf