Bottom two in Multiway Unraised Pot - NL $400

[Big_Jim]

A little bit of background:

Good game, loose PF with lots of multiway pots, people calling down huge bets with draws, a couple weak-tight ninnies, easy money.

Villian in this hand has been sitting at the table for an hour or so with me. He has played draws aggressively, but has been folding when facing resistance. Fairly solid player, but may be tilting slightly, since he's been outdrawn a few times recently. Hasn't done anything too crazy.

Empire Poker $400 (6-Max)

BB: ( $394 )
<font color="blue">Hero - SB</font>: ( $1009.70 )
UTG: ( $410 )
MP ( $110.54 )
<font color="red">Villian -CO</font>: ( $485.28 )
Button: ( $790.67 )

Dealt to Hero: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls $4. UTG+1 calls $4. MP calls $4 Villian calls $4.
<font color="grey">Button folds.</font> Hero calls $2 BB checks..

Flop ($20): T/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero checks. BB checks. UTG checks. MP checks.
<font color="red">CO bets $25.</font>. Hero calls $25. <font color="grey">3 folds.</font>

Turn ($80) [T/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif] 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="red">Hero bets $50.</font> Villian calls $50.

River: [T/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="red"> Hero bets $100.</font> Villian folds.

Hero wins $268.

Thought process to follow after a few replies.

[MINETZ]

I like it and i dont, on one side you get to bet out on a safe turn card, but you might be giving a "free" card for a hand to outdraw you. I prefer leading out, but this is a good line.
Noah

[gol4pro]

What would you have done to a turn/river raise?

Although you do want to control the size of this pot being in the SB, I think you need to pot the turn. There's just too many bloody draws out there to give this guy 2.5:1 on his call right here. A slight overbet may have been good here.

On the whole, I like the line quite a bit. A turn check-raise would have been the next thing that came to mind, but you might be committed on a scary river on that line.

[Big_Jim]

Thanks for the replies, so far.

Guess this isn't that revolutionary of a line for this hand.

Villian's overbet on the flop, to me, screamed that he was on a big draw, and wanted to get c/red so he could 3-bet all in. There are lots of draws, on this board, that he would have tried to make this play with. Acxc seems most likely, but KQ, KJ, KcTc also seemed very possible. Most of these draws are just about 50/50 with my hand.

Furthermore, if any of the others in the hand have any hands like these, they are very likely to call, regardless of my raise, and I won't have any clue where I'm at. This, however, is probably a good reason to raise.

So, on the draw-heaviest of all flops, I decided to look for a safe turn card. Fortunately, the field all folded behind me.

The comment about the full pot bet on the turn is a good one, as it gets better information if I'm raised. Opponent was not too tricky, so at worst he raises me, and I know I'm beat. While I feel that my bet was enough for this same information, I am definately giving him good implied odds to hit his hand.

On the river, against many opponents, I would have check/called, but this one wasn't likely to bet his whiffed draw, so I led, again planning on folding to a raise.

The flop on this hand is the one I'm most unsure about, and I am reconsidering my turn bet also, any other thoughts?

[foldem]

What about checking the river to induce a bluff?

[Big_Jim]

I thought about it, but decided that this opponent wouldn't bluff his whiffed draw, if that's what he had.

Although, he MIGHT have made a value bet with KQ.

[FatalError]

i love the river bet, total blocking/value bet

[warlockjd]

looks good but i check call river to rep missed draw so he'll bluff his

also keeps you outta the rz decision

[captZEEbo1]

I like to c/r big on these flops, sometimes allin. Too many turn cards can make you lose the whole pot incorrectly., Plus KQ, KJ, KT, Kxs or Axs oftentimes have no problems getting it allin on the flop.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to c/r big on these flops, sometimes allin. Too many turn cards can make you lose the whole pot incorrectly., Plus KQ, KJ, KT, Kxs or Axs oftentimes have no problems getting it allin on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love this line vs aggro

playing big pairs like this too sometimes

[captZEEbo1]

one more thing, I think you are betting WAY too small on this turn: remember you do NOT have KKK on K72r flop, you have bottom two on a complete action flop. This guy will likely pay off big pot bets on flop and turn, b/c after all, who can fold a flush draw or striaght draw (or pair+straight draw, etc)? There's a reasonable chance your turn bet is giving him the correct odds to be calling your bets.

[Big_Jim]

I definately considered c/ring the flop, but decided against it for a few reasons.

a) It's quite possible that I'm beat here by QT, QJ, K9, 89. A set seems pretty unlikely, as does AK, however, these are definately possible holdings for several of the players in the pot.
b) Against this player, I have little to no fold equity against any hand that beats mine
c) Lots of players behind me who also won't fold any hand that beats me (except MAYBE QT)
d) This is an unraised pot, and my hand just isn't that strong.
e) Lets villian 3-bet all in with a draw, putting me to a very tough call.
f) Keeps the pot smaller
g) Lets me see how the other players react to the bet without putting in too much money.

Reasons why c/r is good:
a) Get more money in the pot with probable best hand
b) Make all those draws pay
c) Makes it less likely to get outplayed on scary turn card.
d) Lets me take the lead

I figured that the reasons to call outweighted the reasons to c/r, although I might have just been lucky that everybody else folded.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are betting WAY too small on this turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think that I should have full potted it on the turn.

[captZEEbo1]

I guess I didn't really read too many replies yet and kinda see what you're saying. You say your opponent plays draws aggressively. If you check the turn, do you think he will bet again? If so, I really like a VERY large c/r on the turn, pretty much allin.


My next questions is, what are your plans on turn if any of the 21 scare cards come?

[Big_Jim]

Interesting. I hadn't even considered c/ring the turn.

I figured that villian was likely to take his free card for any draw except for maybe the K/images/graemlins/club.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif.

The thought of giving a free card on the turn in this hand makes me shiver.