Open limping the button w/K9o? Still trying to draw a bright line...

[MisterKing]

SB is 65/24/2, BB is 54/24/1... I'm still shifting from full ring to 6max, and am struggling with exactly how to define steal raise situations vs. situations where (per HEPFAP) I'm best off open calling on the button. The way I see it, I need to raise smaller pairs and such, but am fine open calling with hands like Q9o, K9o, A5o, T9s, etc. I've got positional advantage, and can use the small pot to more easily manipulate odds later in the hand, esp. vs opponents prone to call down with almost nothing.

Two quick examples:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.


Villains here are tighter than above

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

[kahntrutahn]

I raise it every time... I think your equity is 42% v two random hands...

[DCWGaming]

In general, open calling is a bad idea...

[MisterKing]

Ok, fair enough for K9. I should've taken that hand out of the post title (its too late to edit now), since really my question is more general in nature. In other words, I see horrible postflop play quite a bit from these guys at 3/6, but feel that raising and folding to a donkbet on the flop when we whiff, or calling that bet and folding the turn UI is, in at least some cases, not best. I am REALLY tempted to start open limping a decent # of hands on the button given what I've seen. This is not to say I don't plan on raising the same hands I'm already raising (any pair, any ace most of the time, JTo+, K9s+, etc etc.

Really, I need to go over King Yao's starters and do a better job of following them, but apart from that general guide I am really interested in trying to find some value vs postflop tards via marginal open limps. The thought process I have in mind is similar to the "take off the training wheels" post Ed Miller had up a while back. Any input is definitely appreciated.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, open calling is a bad idea...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but we're taking about a very specific situation here: folded to you on the button with a marginal hand. See "When the blinds are loose" in HEPFAP (Pg. 197) to see what I'm talking about. Sklansky specifically advocates open calling in some spots, and I'm trying to extrapolate his ideas into the 3/6 and 5/10 short games on Party, which play at least somewhat differently than what Sklansky had in mind when he wrote his book.

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, open calling is a bad idea...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but what are your reasons?

There are situations where I would open call on the button, specifically if I have two real loose passive players in the blinds that love to see flops and turns. There is no reason in bloating the pot with a hand like 89s or 9Ts, but against such bad players, I want to see a flop with these types of hands and I have little to no steal equity. If these guys are perpetual flop peelers, raising makes playing a marginal hand a lot harder because you can't always pound the flop and turn with marginal hands.

[kahntrutahn]

Ok OK... in certain situations, I have been "experimenting" with open-limping with A6-A2o and 44-22...

[wackjob]

I am raising K9o 90% or more of the time from the CO when folded to me. I am raising K9 off on the button every time. With weak players who play too many hands and call too much, I never want to give their weak hands any freebies. If I'm limping K9 off I am giving too many options for hands like J7 off to limp from the SB and beat me.

I also agree that limping in for the most part is a bad play, especially so in SH play. One of the best things that raising does is take away peoples "correct" odds to call. When they do call and they don't have the odds, they end up giving you more money. We all(or most) should know these things. I think most decent, studied players know these things(either by intuition or books).

The obvious other big reason to raise with a hand like K9o is the chance to steal w/o seeing a flop. I'd much rather steal every time than ever see a flop with K9o.

I hope you have read The Theory of Poker, and if not you should, and if not recently, you should re-read it. There is a lot of attention paid to raising &amp; the reasons you should raise. For me, limping in w/o the intention of a c/r pre-flop, is about a 2% of the time play, mostly in the SB with hands I want to see the flop for cheaply.

[twankerr]

While open-limping can be debated, there is little reason to open limp with K9o. I don't care if they tell me they are calling before the flop, you play poker well postflop and you are up against two opponents who are calling with two cards (either red or black) and play poorly postflop a large amount of the time.

[sthief09]

this is probably an ok spot to do this. I'd be more apt to do it with QJ or QT where I have less showdown value though. if you raise it's going to be a pretty big pot 3 ways.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
this is probably an ok spot to do this. I'd be more apt to do it with QJ or QT where I have less showdown value though. if you raise it's going to be a pretty big pot 3 ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting to me... Do you see other specific hands that you might be open limping here sthief? Any particular thought processes going through your head (either in addition to what I have below, or perhaps in contradiction to it if I'm off base somewhere?). My main interest here is really hashing out the concept Sklansky has in his short treatment of very loose blinds, and lining the concept up with the 3/6 and 5/10 games.

I've thought about the matter since posting yesterday, and think really there's no question about open raising K9o OTB. On the more general point, I think I still feel like raising a wide range of other hands, but having re-read the relevant section of HEPFAP, believe hands like J9s, A4o, and Q9o can and should be open limped against very loose blinds who tend to pay off on later streets when beaten.

To wackjob, I appreciate your references, though many of your comments confused me (c/r pre-flop???). Reasons for open limping versus very loose blinds (and ONLY versus very loose blinds) include:

-limiting our investment with marginal hands that will miss a lot of flops and be worthless when called UI.

-keeping the pot small in order to make it easier for us to manipulate odds postflop via bets/raises

-add a handful (and there probably aren't really too many) of marginal hands to our routine that have some value. Every time we skip on value, we lose money. I don't know how much value we gain by playing these hands properly, but I assume for an online player who logs &gt;10K hands per month it is possibly a sizeable number of bets. I want those bets.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
The obvious other big reason to raise with a hand like K9o is the chance to steal w/o seeing a flop. I'd much rather steal every time than ever see a flop with K9o.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would too, but remember, we're talking about very loose blinds. For theoretical reasons, lets assume they never fold to a PF "steal" raise. Then what? There are plenty of players in the Party 3/6 that come very close to fitting this defenition. If we cannot steal via a raise, the next logical question is how do we get the most value for our hand. For K9o, it seems we're probably best off raising anyhow, but for some other hands (see my post above) we are likely best off calling when we cannot steal.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you have read The Theory of Poker, and if not you should, and if not recently, you should re-read it. There is a lot of attention paid to raising &amp; the reasons you should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or in this case the reasons you should *not* raise. If you raise A4o, are called in two spots, and the flop comes without an ace your hand is worth very little. You've likely wasted one small bet, and inflated the pot so that if its checked to you, a continuation bet will offer SB and BB ~7:1 to continue. Not pretty.

[ QUOTE ]
For me, limping in w/o the intention of a c/r pre-flop, is about a 2% of the time play, mostly in the SB with hands I want to see the flop for cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[wackjob]

I will limp KK or AA preflop in 2 situations: 1st in, hoping an aggro player behind me will raise so I can 3-bet.

Or.. on the button with the hopes of a blind raising me so I can 3-bet.

I personally think that the way you are approaching this lends to a "weak-tight" mentality, which by all means is not bad and there are many of those types of players in this forum who are very succesful. I absolutely agree with "If its worth playing, its worth a raise" Obviously this doesn't apply universally to all cards in all positions, but in general. When it comes to playing against the blinds, I want people to have 0 read on me because I will be raising 78s all the way up to AA.

I also don't agree with your line of thinking that you should try to keep the pot small in order to manipulate odds later. If you are limping the button against the 2 blinds you are making a 5 dollar call into a 7 dollar pot(assuming 5/10). You now have the possibility that a better hand will raise you &amp; that you will be HU, likely dominated, with $10 into a $25 pot.

When you raise, you are putting 10 into a 7 dollar pot(with the hopes of taking it down immediately), but assuming your scenario of fishy call stations, you are likely to be looking at a 30 dollar pot postflop, likely with the best hand &amp; position on 2 terrible opponents who you know you outplay postflop. K9o is also an EASY hand to get away from, but still has some showdown value UI. I think this may go back to what I was saying above about play styles, but I would much rather be in the second scenario than the first, especially against opponents that I will outplay post-flop.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
I will limp KK or AA preflop in 2 situations: 1st in, hoping an aggro player behind me will raise so I can 3-bet.

Or.. on the button with the hopes of a blind raising me so I can 3-bet.

I personally think that the way you are approaching this lends to a "weak-tight" mentality, which by all means is not bad and there are many of those types of players in this forum who are very succesful. I absolutely agree with "If its worth playing, its worth a raise" Obviously this doesn't apply universally to all cards in all positions, but in general. When it comes to playing against the blinds, I want people to have 0 read on me because I will be raising 78s all the way up to AA.

I also don't agree with your line of thinking that you should try to keep the pot small in order to manipulate odds later. If you are limping the button against the 2 blinds you are making a 5 dollar call into a 7 dollar pot(assuming 5/10). You now have the possibility that a better hand will raise you &amp; that you will be HU, likely dominated, with $10 into a $25 pot.

When you raise, you are putting 10 into a 7 dollar pot(with the hopes of taking it down immediately), but assuming your scenario of fishy call stations, you are likely to be looking at a 30 dollar pot postflop, likely with the best hand &amp; position on 2 terrible opponents who you know you outplay postflop. K9o is also an EASY hand to get away from, but still has some showdown value UI. I think this may go back to what I was saying above about play styles, but I would much rather be in the second scenario than the first, especially against opponents that I will outplay post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel ya when it comes to wanting to always raise, my man, but I think you are really, really missing the point here. As in really missing the point. We want to win the most possible, every single dollar available to us. For you to suggest, in the face of what Sklansky has to say in HEPFAP on pages 197 and 198, that raising is always right on the button when its folded to you, regardless of any other game factors, well I'm not buying it. Sklansky's words, just to be clear: "When the players in the blinds are very loose, or at least highly apt to defend their blinds there are hands you should just call with." Capiche?

Theoretically, for some opponents and game textures, open calling is (in terms of profit) the superior play. This is not a question of style. Opponents who do not make "reads" and play almost robotically like calling stations cannot be fooled by you changing up your play, or not changing up your play, or any of that, so you must find the theoretically optimal play and just make it. I do not believe there are many hands that do better with an open call on the button, but surely a few do exist.

I looked back through my first 110K hands in PT, which are largely from full ring games, and found 102 instances of open calling on the button when it was folded to me. You can filter for this by selecting Position equals exactly 0, "not in a blind," "put money in," pre-flop raise = "no raise," and "chance to steal and called." The hands I'd done this most often with were JTo, J9o, A4s, T9s, QJo, 98s, and A4o. Many of these are probably better off as a raise, but frankly a few look to be exactly what I'm talking about. I'm interested in what others see when they run this filter.

My whole spiel about keeping the pot small is really a minor sidepoint. The real emphasis is that 1.) we have a hand we want to play on the button when its folded to us, 2.) the blinds will basically never fold, 3.) we want to play the hand in a way that makes us the most money.

Now, for shania reasons, I think some hands that might be better as open calls should still be played for raises, even if our opponents in the hand aren't paying attention. Others at the table, or who are data-mining, will pay attention. But I'm still not satisfied that we've really answered this question fully. Common sense tells me there are some hands that are better open-limped OTB, Sklansky says so, sthief says so and he has pretty looking 6max graphs, etc. etc.

{kidding-sorta}Someone smart with a huge sample size just give me a list of what to open limp versus two very loose blinds dammit!!:D{/kidding-sorta}

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
this is probably an ok spot to do this. I'd be more apt to do it with QJ or QT where I have less showdown value though. if you raise it's going to be a pretty big pot 3 ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you mucking hands like 97s, 87s, etc against these donkeys? Or raising because they play better multiway than hands like K9o? Or calling because of their total lack of showdown value?

[wackjob]

I don't take every single thing written in poker books as the truth. I honestly believe when you limp in with the best hand it is a MISTAKE. When you let a 27 see a free flop and you hold K9, I BELIEVE this to be a mistake. I find it simple logical thinking that raising with the best hand is a GOOD move.

I do own many poker books, and have read most of them, some more than once, and reference them as well. I don't, however, take everything I read as the absolute, end-all truth. I believe all the "truths" written about by poker experts are basically inferred and generally conceded as such because of common sense or because we can get out a calculator and do the math to prove it(pot odds, for example).

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't take every single thing written in poker books as the truth. I honestly believe when you limp in with the best hand it is a MISTAKE. When you let a 27 see a free flop and you hold K9, I BELIEVE this to be a mistake. I find it simple logical thinking that raising with the best hand is a GOOD move.

I do own many poker books, and have read most of them, some more than once, and reference them as well. I don't, however, take everything I read as the absolute, end-all truth. I believe all the "truths" written about by poker experts are basically inferred and generally conceded as such because of common sense or because we can get out a calculator and do the math to prove it(pot odds, for example).

[/ QUOTE ]

Take what you said and insert T9s, J7s, J8o, Q9o, A4o, and K7o. Now what? You're too fixated on K9, and with some of these other hands, we have no clue as to whether (in terms of raw equity) we have (as you say) "the best hand." K9 is not the issue here, and you are grossly oversimplifying the matter by relying on it, assuming we have the best hand, etc. Yes, some thing in poker books are not absolute truths, or even true at all (Cloutier's big bet book contains a few notable errors), but this one seems correct to me in the limited context in which it is presented.