Bubble, button pushes, SB calls, I have TT, have button covered

[ilya]

What do you guys think?

***** Hand History for Game 2489071727 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14602920 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Saturday, August 06, 17:43:07 EDT 2005
Table Table 14918 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 4: Ase_Heart ( $3645 )
Seat 9: banker5870 ( $635 )
Seat 3: StneColdCall ( $1030 )
Seat 1: stormblast ( $2690 )
Trny:14602920 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to StneColdCall [ Ts Td ]
Ase_Heart folds.
banker5870 is all-In [635]
stormblast calls [585].

[Nick B.]

I think that is a sticky situation. I would probably call and check it down or call the flop. I don't know if that is correct, but it is likely what I would do. YOu don't really want to get the big stack out of the hand. And you don't want to have the all in high card the button at showdown.

[tigerite]

Ugh, this is pretty bad, but you would have to lose to the short stack AND big stack to finish 4th.. although that happened to me in another game in a similar situation but I digress.. I think you probably should push, and pray the A-rag from the shorty doesn't hit along with the various rags from the big stack.

[Nick B.]

What do you gain from pushing?

[Newt_Buggs]

I call and play the flop from there

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you gain from pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. You could call but you'll be pretty much committed to doing a stop and go unless it comes with a truly horrible flop..

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you gain from pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

You get the rest of SB's money in when you're very likely ahead. I don't mind a fold from him either, considering how much dead money that leaves in the pot.

[microbet]

With stack sizes such as they are I don't think it is clear you want the big stack out of this hand. I don't think you have much FE anyway.

I think you have to call though because you have a strong hand and certainly can't be confident short stack will be beaten by big stack alone.

[curtains]

Well the worst thing to do is fold. The rest is not super relevant in ths situation.

[TheSalche]

my thing with folding here is lets say they both hold two high unpaired overcards, something like AQ vs. AJ ... chances are one of those will hit ... ideally youd want the card to just hit the short stack so you can still take some money from a sidepot wiht the bigstack ... the other liekly situation is the small stack has a low pair in which case you'll be dominating him, while the big stack has two overcards which makes the overall situation a little worse than a coinflip ... i suppose you have no choice but go all in here since you'll most likely get 3rd if the big stack wins anyways

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
you'll most likely get 3rd if the big stack wins anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

You will get 3rd if the bigstack wins.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
my thing with folding here is lets say they both hold two high unpaired overcards, something like AQ vs. AJ ... chances are one of those will hit ... ideally youd want the card to just hit the short stack so you can still take some money from a sidepot wiht the bigstack ... the other liekly situation is the small stack has a low pair in which case you'll be dominating him, while the big stack has two overcards which makes the overall situation a little worse than a coinflip ... i suppose you have no choice but go all in here since you'll most likely get 3rd if the big stack wins anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. That isn't right, you don't want the shortstack to win.

[durron597]

I'm pushing, I'd rather HU against the shortstack with dead money then have to beat the big stack if possible. And if the big stack is calling flops he hits folding flops he misses then I don't want him to fold when he misses since I'm 75/25 vs. him when he has overs assuming even that he's not sharing outs with the big stack.

I don't think it's likely enough here that he's calling to try to trap you in with a big pair. He's thinking most of the time (at this buyin) well, I don't want the shorty to win the blinds and I don't know what the BB has and I have chips, I call.

I'm expecting the sidepot to be nearly all of the time 70/30 for Hero. A hand like K8 for the big stack.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you gain from pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. You could call but you'll be pretty much committed to doing a stop and go unless it comes with a truly horrible flop..

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you have to put the rest of you chips in? This will usually get checked down unless the bigstack hits the flop or you decided you like the flop and bet the rest.

[Freudian]

What really sucks with calling is that bigstack can bet this flop even if he missed, counting on you to fold and just adding money if his hand ends up being the best. If there is an overcard on the flop will you call his bet?

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]
my thing with folding here is lets say they both hold two high unpaired overcards, something like AQ vs. AJ ... chances are one of those will hit

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty strong read for a desperate stack who is opening the hand against two blinds. I dont give him this much credit.
Also, you say "chances are one of the overs will hit..." "chances are" = 55%... and if the bigstack is ahead with the AQ then you dont mind so much if the Q hits and you hate if the A hits and you bet him out while shorty doubles.
I put him on ANY TWO CARDS and bigstack on a very wide range.
[ QUOTE ]

... ideally youd want the card to just hit the short stack so you can still take some money from a sidepot wiht the bigstack

[/ QUOTE ]
I couldnt disagree more. Ideally youll want neither to hit and or to hit a set yourself and win, a 45% prospect. Next id be rooting for the bigstack to win since im guarenteed money and losing the hand leaves me as a fine competitor for 2nd or 1st.
[ QUOTE ]

... the other liekly situation is the small stack has a low pair in which case you'll be dominating him, while the big stack has two overcards which makes the overall situation a little worse than a coinflip ... i suppose you have no choice but go all in here since you'll most likely get 3rd if the big stack wins anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

YOULL ALWAYS GET 3rd if bigstack wins. Also, im not giving him credit for a low PP either, you are making a very tight read and giving far too much credit. If this is the case, youre still 45% against a low PP and two overs!!!!

You have two options, and the correct answer is based on a read you have of the bigstack.
1.) Repush over the top. You would do this if you cant count on the bigstack checking down the flop whether he has hit or not. If he the type who doesnt understand cooperation plays and will likely semi-bluff a draw or low PP, or even stone cold bluff then you need to save the decision making and push. I think you have some FE here because he wants shorty out as much as you do and you show tremendous strength by refusing his help, but youre mostly pushign because i think youre likely against a bad ace or worse and your read says bigstack is unreliable in cooperation.
B.)Your other option is to call. I would do this if the bigstack is probably just calling a small bet from a desperate stack and wants to take him out. If this is the case ill check it down with him unless i spike a set, where i might try and make some value out of it, since he'll call with any pair not wanting you to be bluffing and have the shorty win.

[Isura]

I don't like calling here, because 90% of the players at the 20s don't understand the cooperation play, and you end up being bet out of the pot. I'd just push and maximize the value of my hand and force big stack to call with a worst hand.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like calling here, because 90% of the players at the 20s don't understand the cooperation play, and you end up being bet out of the pot. I'd just push and maximize the value of my hand and force big stack to call with a worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

SO when he bets, call. Why does everybody want the big stack out. For everybody who preaches ICM, this one is a no brainer. YOU WANT THE BIGSTACK IN.

[TheSalche]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you'll most likely get 3rd if the big stack wins anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

You will get 3rd if the bigstack wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry ... i meant if he folds and the bigstack wins against the button, then he would still likely get 3rd cause he is so short stacked

[45suited]

I call here. I WANT the bigstack in the hand. (Not that you really have much FE anyway.)

You certainly can't fold. And this seems like a spot where I'd be more concerned with ITM than whipping out my E-penis and "playing for first".