66 flopped set, reraised by set miner

[swolfe]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($2725.50)
Hero ($2722.50)
MP3 ($2384)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
UTG calls $20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $20, CO calls $20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($120) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $800</font>, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero ???

UTG seems like a pretty bad LAG, and MP3 is a generic 16/5 set miner. since i know he's just a set miner (and i doubt he'd reraise two pair or TPTK), this is an easy fold, right?

[flawless_victory]

i suppose he absolutely must have 77 here. i think this is a V good fold.

[mgsimpleton]

i agree this is probably a fold, but what makes you doubt he would reraise 2 pair?

[someguy123]

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i suppose he absolutely must have 77 here. i think this is a V good fold.

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agree. if he is that tight i would fold. Unless you think he his reading you as maniac or that you overplay hands like AK. he can have A7s but i think its more likely he have 77.

[spino1i]

I dont care about the fact he's a set miner, I'd still reraise him. I dont think you can fold bottom set when one of the higher sets can defintely be eliminated from being possible (AA, which we know he doesnt have since he didnt raise pre-flop). I mean its possible he has 77 in the same way its possibly someone could have quads when you have an overfull on a paired board, but I dont think you could lay your hand down.

[someguy123]

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I dont care about the fact he's a set miner, I'd still reraise him. I dont think you can fold bottom set when one of the higher sets can defintely be eliminated from being possible (AA, which we know he doesnt have since he didnt raise pre-flop). I mean its possible he has 77 in the same way its possibly someone could have quads when you have an overfull on a paired board, but I dont think you could lay your hand down.

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No cause if he is a set miner he woul seldom reraise flop 800 in an unraised pot with only two pair. Everyone who have read Pot-limit and no-limit or super system. Knows you dont lose your stack with bottom set in an unraised pot. If i was villian playing that tight i would think long time and then it would be close between either lay down A7s or raise it. I would certainly not play 67s or A6s here.

[spino1i]

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I dont care about the fact he's a set miner, I'd still reraise him. I dont think you can fold bottom set when one of the higher sets can defintely be eliminated from being possible (AA, which we know he doesnt have since he didnt raise pre-flop). I mean its possible he has 77 in the same way its possibly someone could have quads when you have an overfull on a paired board, but I dont think you could lay your hand down.

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No cause if he is a set miner he woul seldom reraise flop 800 in an unraised pot with only two pair. Everyone who have read Pot-limit and no-limit or super system. Knows you dont lose your stack with bottom set in an unraised pot. If i was villian playing that tight i would think long time and then it would be close between either lay down A7s or raise it. I would certainly not play 67s or A6s here.

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Well thats not how I play, I dont make a habit folding sets on unpaired boards with no straights and flushes possible unless it seems quite plausible that villain could have either higher set. Its just too improbable. I mean a read is great, but people do suprising things.

And I dont read those books because I think experience is the greatest teacher, and experience has taught me that sets rarely lose on those sorts of flops.

[amoeba]

I don't think you can eliminate AA here as he is UTG at fullring table.

[spino1i]

no its MP3 thats the villain here, not UTG, look at the hand.. UTG folds after the reraise.

[someguy123]

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I dont care about the fact he's a set miner, I'd still reraise him. I dont think you can fold bottom set when one of the higher sets can defintely be eliminated from being possible (AA, which we know he doesnt have since he didnt raise pre-flop). I mean its possible he has 77 in the same way its possibly someone could have quads when you have an overfull on a paired board, but I dont think you could lay your hand down.

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No cause if he is a set miner he woul seldom reraise flop 800 in an unraised pot with only two pair. Everyone who have read Pot-limit and no-limit or super system. Knows you dont lose your stack with bottom set in an unraised pot. If i was villian playing that tight i would think long time and then it would be close between either lay down A7s or raise it. I would certainly not play 67s or A6s here.

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Well thats not how I play, I dont make a habit folding sets on unpaired boards with no straights and flushes possible unless it seems quite plausible that villain could have either higher set. Its just too improbable. I mean a read is great, but people do suprising things.

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Okey lets say you decide to play. you said push him on flop ? terrible idea. He will get out with A7s but call with 77. You wont see him folding often enough to make this play profitable...

Just call the flop will show much strenght too because the pot is unraised. I dont think he will pay you off enough when he have A7s. when he have 77 he will get your money. again i dont think you will see A7s enough to make this play profitable.

Push flop is not profitable and calling and milk it is what i think. Marginal.

[spino1i]

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I dont care about the fact he's a set miner, I'd still reraise him. I dont think you can fold bottom set when one of the higher sets can defintely be eliminated from being possible (AA, which we know he doesnt have since he didnt raise pre-flop). I mean its possible he has 77 in the same way its possibly someone could have quads when you have an overfull on a paired board, but I dont think you could lay your hand down.

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No cause if he is a set miner he woul seldom reraise flop 800 in an unraised pot with only two pair. Everyone who have read Pot-limit and no-limit or super system. Knows you dont lose your stack with bottom set in an unraised pot. If i was villian playing that tight i would think long time and then it would be close between either lay down A7s or raise it. I would certainly not play 67s or A6s here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well thats not how I play, I dont make a habit folding sets on unpaired boards with no straights and flushes possible unless it seems quite plausible that villain could have either higher set. Its just too improbable. I mean a read is great, but people do suprising things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okey lets say you decide to play. you said push him on flop ? terrible idea. He will get out with A7s but call with 77. You wont see him folding often enough to make this play profitable...

Just call the flop will show much strenght too because the pot is unraised. I dont think he will pay you off enough when he have A7s. when he have 77 he will get your money. again i dont think you will see A7s enough to make this play profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has position on you, so smooth calling might be problematic.. a stop and go might work on the turn, where you call his bet and then bet some amount on the turn like 400-500$. I dont like reraising or pushing though for that reason, he will fold top two and only call with the better set. So I think a call is in order here, and then depending on what card shows on the turn, you have to figure out whether you want to check-raise him all in or pull a stop 'n go.

[someguy123]

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He has position on you, so smooth calling might be problematic.. a stop and go might work on the turn, where you call his bet and then bet some amount on the turn like 400-500$. I dont like reraising or pushing though for that reason, he will fold top two and only call with the better set. So I think a call is in order here, and then depending on what card shows on the turn, you have to figure out whether you want to check-raise him all in or pull a stop 'n go.

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so u are changing you reraise on flop to a stop and go ?
To a player like this with A7s this is to obvious, he knows that he is at best split pot.

[Neurotoxin]

"Generic 16/5 players" still make plays. You say the UTG guy is a LAG, well that of course means your raise looks a lot weaker and makes it a lot more likely that MP3 is pushing you out with 2 pair. If you also have an aggressive image then I think that makes it a push instead of a fold.

[spino1i]

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He has position on you, so smooth calling might be problematic.. a stop and go might work on the turn, where you call his bet and then bet some amount on the turn like 400-500$. I dont like reraising or pushing though for that reason, he will fold top two and only call with the better set. So I think a call is in order here, and then depending on what card shows on the turn, you have to figure out whether you want to check-raise him all in or pull a stop 'n go.

[/ QUOTE ]

so u are changing you reraise on flop to a stop and go ?
To a player like this with A7s this is to obvious, he knows that he is at best split pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps.. I am not a big fan of raising on the flop with a set (espicially on a rainbow board) to begin with. Espically when you have position on the initial raiser. It just has a nasty habit of giving away your hand. I agree you're in trouble, I probably would have just called the initial bet, the set-miner would have made his raise, I would have called that. Turn comes and I check and set miner would have thought I was drawing and made another big bet, and at that point I push. But thats how I'd play it.

[someguy123]

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He has position on you, so smooth calling might be problematic.. a stop and go might work on the turn, where you call his bet and then bet some amount on the turn like 400-500$. I dont like reraising or pushing though for that reason, he will fold top two and only call with the better set. So I think a call is in order here, and then depending on what card shows on the turn, you have to figure out whether you want to check-raise him all in or pull a stop 'n go.

[/ QUOTE ]

so u are changing you reraise on flop to a stop and go ?
To a player like this with A7s this is to obvious, he knows that he is at best split pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps.. I am not a big fan of raising on the flop with a set (espicially on a rainbow board) to begin with. Espically when you have position on the initial raiser. It just has a nasty habit of giving away your hand. I agree you're in trouble, I probably would have just called the initial bet, the set-miner would have made his raise, I would have called that. Turn comes and I check and set miner would have thought I was drawing and made another big bet, and at that point I push. But thats how I'd play it.

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yeah but that is clearly not the situation. You must consider mp3 re-raise as either A7s or 77.

Hero is not gonna be able to put him on a single hand, but he can consider the possible for Mp3 having A7s and 77 ( no i cant really see any other hand here ). 77 is more likely than A7s. 77 will win heros money, while A7s is possible to bail out. The profitable play here is to fold, but thats just in my world.

Now i cant make another reply in this thread cause it wouldnt make sense for me to restating everything i say over and over.

[xcrack999]

I'm just a small stakes lurker here, but would a 16/5 set farmer really limp in MP with A7?

[swolfe]

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I'm just a small stakes lurker here, but would a 16/5 set farmer really limp in MP with A7?

[/ QUOTE ]potentially, if it was sooted, which leaves only A7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or A7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[swolfe]

well, i called the flop, and check-raise pushed a blank turn. of course, he had 77, just like i thought on the flop before i talked myself out of folding. sigh.