KQ suited on the button.

[Bob T.]

Loose passive 6-12 game.

Two limpers, post in the cutoff checks, I have K /forums/images/icons/club.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif on the button.

I raise, BB, and the other three call.

Flop 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif .

Other than giving me an actual hand, this is about as good as it gets, Checked to me, I bet. BB checkraises, limpers and the post fold, and it is back to me, I have 17 potential outs, so I three bet, the BB calls. Who likes the three bet here, and if you three bet, what is your plan for the turn, if you miss.

Turn, 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

BB checks, I check behind. I already asked, but do you think that a bet has enough value here. I thought that the BB was probably betting some kind of made hand, so unless there was significant chance of her laying her hand down, I thought that a check was in order.

River 6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

BB bets, I raise, she calls, and my hand was good.

I was wondering about the three bet the flop then check behind on the turn, and whether or not I should have made a turn bet.

As it turns out, if the hand is played all the way to the end, I think I won the same number of bets that I would if I had bet the turn, but if I don't improve by the river, I would lose more by betting the turn.

[PokerPrince]

Played exquisitely. The flop three-bet is a great ploy to get you a free card. Isn't late position great?

PokerPrince

[Ed Miller]

You have two good options, IMHO. Option 1 is playing the way you did. That has the advantage of putting you in the position of likely having +EV on every dollar that goes into the pot based solely on the cards (i.e. ignoring that your opponent could fold). It has the disadvantage that your opponent will be suspicious that you are trying to push her off her 97o with your AK and she will be likely to call you down.

Option 2 is to smooth call the flop checkraise planning to semi-bluff raise the turn. The disadvantage is that you will have -EV on the turn bets if called. The advantage is that you will have a lot more leverage to push your opponent of a hand... 97o is not calling the turn checkraise.

In these situations, I usually employ either option 1 or 2 depending on my opponent (how likely are they to call me down with trash if I represent an overpair on the flop vs. the turn) and some randomness. I generally don't bet the turn if I 3-bet the flop, though. I really don't want to be checkraised... and (at least in my game) no one mucks a decent made hand for just a turn and river bet.

[davidross]

Bob,

I think you got pretty lucky that she bet into you on the river. Your 3-bet and then check screams flush draw. I can’t believe she bet into you and still called the raise. So I don’t think it’s fair to say you won the same as you would have if you bet the turn.

Upon further review I think the best play might be to just call the raise on the flop, hoping to get a raise in on a later street if you hit. Post flop you expect to win this hand more than 50% of the time, so I would rather get the extra bet on an expensive street, rather than on the flop.

Of course if I knew her river play would be so bad, your line was perfect. Well done.

[Bob T.]

I don't think that betting on the end by her part was terrible, some people might have made my play with a pocket pair that she could beat, but I think that folding to the raise would probably have been a good idea. But if she was going to call a raise, it might have been better for her to check and call my bet, hoping that I might have bluffed on the end.

I think that calling the flop, and then raising the river after I hit also has a lot of merit. That is one reason to post these hands, you always get a lot of ideas, even when you think that there wasn't that much that could be improved upon the way a hand played out. Thanks.

[Bob T.]

I think that in most online games that I play in, I would have tried option 2(semibluff raising the turn). I have some experience with the player in question, and I didn't think that she made a lot of laydowns, so that is why I chose 3 betting, and checking the turn.

Thanks for your response,

Bob T,

I'm a sucker for a big drawing hand like this (see my post) and would have bet the turn. This is one of the few hands when my gambling insticts take over.

[AceHigh]

I think you played it perfect. Bet the turn if you think there is a decent chance your opponent will fold.

Are there any hands BB would check/raise with that they would fold for 1 bet on the turn?

[Bob T.]

I thought that there are certainly some hands that my opponent would fold, but I thought that my opponent probably had top pair, and as I said in another post, I hadn't noticed her making a lot of laydowns in pots that she was involved in.

She might have been able to make laydowns, but the game we were involved in had three players that would play any two cards, and make some moves after the flop with bottom pair or weak draws, so when they were involved, you really just had to hold on and see the river if you had values.

[elysium]

great three bet for value on the flop,but why didn't you bet the turn?you have enough outs here.you may have gotten the fold right there.a hand that strong should never bet for nor accept a free card.if your opponent had bet into you ,would you have raised on the turn ? you'd better believe you would!so,why not bet when he throws in the towel by checking?in this case ,you gave him a free one.that is a devestating error to make in heads up play.when an opponent weakens like that on the turn,take the money and run!

[AceHigh]

I think you might have missed my point. It's unlikely the BB is folding on the turn or river, so you should take the free card.

[elysium]

thats good.the big blind knows that you know he/she doesn't fold on the turn.that is yet one more good reason to bet the turn.and yes,you must raise the turn here if bb bets into you, that's for sure.we're heads up here.

[Bob T.]

I was providing the data that I used to agree with you at the table. I didn't think she would muck often enough so that a bet on the turn would have positive expectation.

[Vehn]

At canterbury 6/12 you played it perfect /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Against a more tight aggressive ("better") player I would just go ahead and bet the turn and hope they fold some pair against your "obvious" overpair. I save my "shots" (calling flop/raising turn) for lack of a better term for places (scare cards mostly) where I think there's a good chance of it working. When a blank hits the turn most mediocre opponents will just shrug and call the turn and hope for the best. If I actually did have QQ here I'd usually pop her on the turn and expect to get paid off.

[Bob T.]

Low limit at canterbury park, is the home of showdown poker, and the missed value bet on the river. Betting decisions need to be made on the likelehood that you will have a good hand to showdown. Even though my play screamed made draw, I was still called on the river. I don't think that as long as their is any suspicion about the value of my hand, am I going to win this pot on the turn.

I didn't bet the turn, because I thought that my outs combined with the chances of my opponent folding were insufficient to make the turn bet positive expectation.

If I got bet into on the turn, I would have called for the same reasons.

If I were playing 3-6 or 5-10 online, against typical opponents, I would probably have either semibluff raised the turn, or three bet the flop, and followed up with a bet on the turn, because my opponents are much more likely to fold in those venues.

[Louie Landale]

The key to this hand is how assertive the BB may be in this spot. Assertive players are very likely to check-raise with ANY pair or any draw, since a LP raiser can easily have nothing. Bet the turn against this sort of player, and often bluff the river.

Against other types who are almost sure to have a pair of Jacks, their chances of folding are small so checking the turn is reasonable. Never-the-less, you have a BUNCH of outs and it doesn't have to be very likely they'll fold before betting is correct.

- Louie

[Bob T.]

If all of my outs are good, my opponent doesn't have something like a king or queen kicker to their presumed pair, I need them to fold about 20% of the time for the bet to breakeven on the turn.

This accounts for the extra money that I lose when I bet and lose, the money that I don't win but might have, when I would have had the best hand on the end. I think that it is closer than I thought to a positive value bet on the turn, and that maybe I should go ahead and bet here.

This is one of the reasons that you post hands, I thought that there was very little to discuss here, but that it was an interesting example of a value bet/free card play that worked, and it produced a fair amount of discussion about alternative plays.

Thanks everyone who responded.

[AceHigh]

Remember you got the bet back you lost on the turn, when you were bet into on the river. That's another reason to check the turn.

[elysium]

in heads up action, there is no such thing as a free card.in fact, in multi-way pots, there is no such a thing.the reason? if you are checked to, you have a value bet in multi-way pots.let them call. you gotta love it.if they all fold, ya gotta love that too.now heads up you aren't getting the correct odds to make a value bet with your flush draw, unless your opponent will call your river bet.he may not do that! so now you don't have implied odds either.what do you have if your opponent offers you a free one? nothing! unless you bet.you are positioned perfectly to get the bet in now that he won't put in on the river.if you miss, perfect.because your previous action now lets you drag the whole pot down with a bet.so, under no circumstances do you not bet.you have the winning hand.