Hello! On 4th Str. , the Bull had...

[SittingBull]

(4,3)4,7
Player1 had 2 suited paint showing--live diamonds and live cards.
Don't remember what player2 had.
When I can't remember what a player has,I believe that he is no threat to my hand or very little threat.
Both players check to the Bull.
Player1 is an elderly lady whom I've been locking horns with for several years.
Don't remember anything about Player2.
Player1 is usually on the tight side.
However,she seemed to play looser than usual during this session. She was playing quite a large number of 3rd Str. hands.
Hmmm What's the Bull's play at this point??

Just wondering
SittingBull

[DoctorK]

Why did you play this tiny pair, even smaller kicker (I hope you were the bring in)? Anyhoo, if Player 1 is loose like you say, she will probably call a bet here.

The problem with a hand like yours is this: suppose you check 4th, and then catch a 3 or a 7 on 5th for a baby 2-pair... but loosey-goosey catches a third of her suit. You don't really want to be calling a $5 bet from her there, because although she may not have the flush, or even a 4-flush, she very well may... or she may have one big pair and an easy draw to beat you... or she may already have two pair and you're way behind...

If you bet here, what will the other two players reasonbly put you on. About the strongest hand you would conceivably have as the bring-in betting here is a pair of 7s... maybe 7s up. Not a monster.

Check and hope... that's my 4th street play here.

[Tom D]

You’re pretty miserly with info, but I can’t think of a scenario where I would bet your hand. I assume there’s $3 in the pot, and I can’t imagine why Player 1 didn’t bet it ($3) to knock out the bring-in, which may have been you. She made a big mistake, and I’d make her pay for it by taking the free card. If you spike another 4, she might not like it.

Her play is so bad, actually, that I might wonder if she were slow playing trips, or maybe she doesn’t bet four-flushes. If that were the case, you’d be happy not to bet her had for her; even if you hit your 4, I wouldn’t be too smug until her cards were in the muck.

Tom D

[patrick dicaprio]

there is no reason i can think of to bet here. you should check all the time. the only time it might be worth a bet is ina split limit game where you can set up a steal on fifth. this doesnt appear to be the situation here.

ionce played against a guy at mohegan sun, who had an oxygen tank with him while he played. any time he had a small pair he would fold on fifth if he did not improve. so against a player like that you might bet.

Pat

[SittingBull]

I was the bring-in. However,if my cards are all live and it's 1SB to me ,I play on 3rd with small pair , small kicker.
U are correct about the Lady! She was a real threat /forums/images/icons/frown.gif with her 2 big suited face cards.
However,since the table was relatively tight and I believed that I had the BEST hand at the moment,I fired away 1BB.
Unfortunately /forums/images/icons/confused.gif ,I received a call from the Lady!
I was definitely concerned. I was hoping to take the pot down immediately.
No such luck /forums/images/icons/mad.gif It was heads-up on 5th when I connected with opened 7's and fired away.
The Lady did not seem to improve.
But she still called /forums/images/icons/confused.gif !!
Happy Pokering,
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

amount of info. However,I can only remember some of the "highlights" of my play. I have a poor re-call memory AFTER the hand is played out.
By the time I post,one or two days have elapsed. But do what U can with the sparse amount of info that I provide and use your imagination. My questions and answers are not scientific.
The reason the Lady did not push her hand is because she bets/raises ONLY when she has the "goods'.
Hence,she is very readable and NOT creative.
I planned on check/folding 2 pairs on 7th Str. had she bet into me.
This lady has NEVER bluffed once in the several years I've been playing with her.
Hence,she would bet ONLY if she could beat 2 pairs. I fired away on 4th because I had a good chance of taking down the pot . I believed that i had the BEST hand at the moment. However,I was then heads-up /forums/images/icons/confused.gif with the Lady!
Didn't like that a bit.
And when she called my opened 7's on 5th,giving me 2 pairs,I REALLY /forums/images/icons/confused.gif didn't like it!! Oh! No!


Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

reasons to fire away on 4th:
(1) BOTH players CHECKED to me. Hence,they "told" me that they were weak.
(2) MOST players at the table were tight. Hence,I had a good chance of taking down the pot on 4th.
Even if the Lady were playing rather loose during this session,I've increased my chances of winning the pot by eliminating one of the players and going heads-up with the Lady.
When I hit my opened pair of 7's,I was delighted! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif but when she called,I was disappointed /forums/images/icons/frown.gif
Nonetheless,i fired away on 5th and 6th when I perceived "no improvement" on her hand.
My 7th Str play was to check/fold if she had bet.
The Lady has NEVER ran a bluff in the years that I've been playing with her.
Hence,had she bet, my 2 pairs would not have been any good.
Happy pokering,
SittingBull

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SittingBull:

Your play is to check. If you opponent with the two suited face cards bet, you would quickly fold. So she was nice enough to give you a free card, and you should take it.

Given your hand, there is virtually nothing that she can hold that she would fold against your bet and you would want her to fold. So at worse, you're making a small mistake by not betting.

Best wishes,
mason

[34TheTruth34]

Hello Bull. You wrote:

if my cards are all live and it's 1SB to me ,I play on 3rd with small pair , small kicker.

There's more to consider here than whether or not your cards are live. First of all, if this is a 1-3 no ante game (I don't remember if you mentioned the stakes or not), this should almost always be a clear fold against normal competition (and yes, I understand that normal 1-3 competition is not that good). If you are in early position, it should still be a fold even if the last 7 pots have been 4- or 5- way for just one bet. Since your pair is exposed, you need the type of opponents who will pay you off on the rare occasion that you hit your trips. What you don't seem to understand is that your most likely improvement is to 2 pair. And as the great Roy West says, "fives and threes just isn't much of a poker hand". Not trying to offend you because I like reading your posts, but you have too damn many of them where you have like 8's up and you have to figure out if it's good or not. If you just fold this trash to begin with, it might be a lot easier (yes, I realize you were the bring-in in this particular hand). And I don't feel the straight kicker is worth much, if anything. If you caught a 5 to this hand, you'd just be getting sucked in to a -EV situation.

OTOH, if the game is 1-5 with a .50 ante, then I think the small split pairs and small kickers are more reasonable to play. But still, if there are aggressive players and/or big face cards behind you, you could be in danger of a raise.

In this particular hand, I don't think you'd be giving up too much if you checked and folded to a bet on 4th.

Happy pokering

P.S. Mason? In the stud section? Answering our questions? Cool...

[SittingBull]

my plays. If U do not,then U WOULD be OFFENDING me.
one of the reasons for my posting is to obtain some good feedback like yours so I can improve my plays. Please continue to offer your objective opinions.
If I were offended my your comments,I would be a LOSING poker player.

In this 1/5 NO ante game where players are either tight/passive or loose/passive,playing small pairs/weak kicker (all live is OK).
But U are correct when U say that these hands are NOT playable in aggressive games. I do throw them away in these types of games.
Even if I hit 2 small pairs on 4th,it will not cost me much to continue with the hand in a passive game. The hand can then be considered a drawing hand. In these passive games,there is usually no raises. If one completes to a full-house,he will then have volume to extract from loose/passive players.
Remember,in a loose/passive game,one should play weak hands that have reasonably good winning potential.
Sure,it would be a lot easier not to put oneself in "harm's Way" by always mucking these weak hands.
However,U will also reduce your overall earnsing by doing so. The key is to try to exercise good judgment when coming in with these hands(tight or loose passive games only).
Another potential problem in ALWAYS mucking these types of hands--forming a habit that will usually carry over when one plays in a higher limit ante game. It is very difficult to break a habit once it is formed.
So occasionally practicing high varience plays in a low limit no ante game will make the transition to higher ante limit games a lot easier.
U will not have to struggle to make an adjustment. U will already have formed the habit .
I know that U need to player a lot tigher in a low limit no ante game to be a winner. However,U will be a BIGGER winner by selectively making high varience plays and occasionally placing yourself in "Harm's way".

Happy pokering,
SittingBull

[SittingBull]

I'm making a SMALL MISTAKE by NOT betting. And that's CORRECT--in this ONE spot! But by NOT betting in spots like these over MANY sessions,the many SMALL mistakes will add up to several LARGE mistakes over time . I can then expect my overall profit to suffer as a result.

The reason the Lady and the other player CHECKED was because they did NOT have ANYTHING.
My hand was the BEST at the time.
I also had the opportunity to knock out BOTH players.
Even though I was successful in eliminating only one,I did increas my chances of winning the pot by doing so.
U memtioned that it was great for the lady to check because she GAVE me a "free card".
However,SHE was the one who was looking for a "free card". My hand was better than hers.
Should I then give her a "free card" to improve to a BIG pair or better WITHOUT making her pay a price??
Hmmm Yearright!
Happy pokering,
SittingBull /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[SittingBull]

I checked my 2 small pairs on 7th with the intention of folding if bet into. This laydy has NEVER ran a bluff in the several years I've locked horns with her.
She indicated that she "missed her draw".
My two pairs took it down.
H /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif appy pokering,
SittingBull

[34TheTruth34]

Bull---

I agree with most of what you said. I just don't see too many games where you can proftiably play (4,3)4. That's all I'm saying. I feel this hand is unprofitable in even the best games because:

1. your hand is garbage
2. if it improves, it will usually be to two small or medium pair, which is still garbage.
3. your hand is exposed, and if you pair your doorcard, your hand is available for everyone to see.
**4. you can get sucked in to a -EV situation when you catch a 2 or 5, trying to make a straight.
5. If it gets raised behind you, you probably have to fold.

IMO, there is a HUGE difference between (4,3)4 and the much more superior (4,4)3 and (4,A)4 where you have surprise or high card value. I don't know about you, but I see a lot of 1-3 games on the end where one player has aces up another player has kings up and a third player has tens up. The extra value gained throught that ace or king kicker can't be overlooked.

you said:
Sure,it would be a lot easier not to put oneself in "harm's Way" by always mucking these weak hands.

What's wrong always mucking a weak hand? If by weak you mean unprofitable, then by definition you should always muck it, no?

BTW, where do you play 1-5 with no ante? I have to admit I have little experience playing that game. The only place I've ever seen it is at Bally's in AC. They have only 2 games running there: a 1-5 stud with no ante and a 5-10-15-20 stud. That's a normal distribution of poker games for a cardroom, right? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif "Hold'em?? What's that??"...

Anyway, I don't think we differ on too much philisophically. Good luck to ya...









**How often do you see this? Low limit players lose a ton of money for their lifetime with hands like this. You start with that trash and catch a five. you have a pair and a 3-straight so you call. Next card is another five. Now you have 2 pair and 3 to a straight, so you call again. But now someone else has a board like K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif-Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif-9 and another player makes an open pair of jacks and your other two 4s are dead. Maybe a 5 was folded earlier too, you don't remember. Now on 6th street
you catch a 7, giving you two small pair and a gutshot straight draw. How many 6s have been folded? You have no idea, but you call again. Do you call on the end if you don't improve? Let's say you make your straight, but the pair of jacks bets out and the K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif -Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif -9 raises. Now what? Can you really call? What if you lay down the best hand? You see how this can snowball into major long term -EV.
I can tell just from reading your posts that you're too good to lose tons of money with hands like that, but a lot of players do. I see it every time I play.

[SittingBull]