10/20 6max : 2 turn decisions - AA + AA

[Surfbullet]

Villain is 52/30/1.3 over 59 hands. Been raising alot pf.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero...?


No reads on villain, he sat down 2 hands ago.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero...?


What's my plan for each hand, and why?

It may be a symptom of running bad, but I feel like I've been overplaying overpairs some times and underplaying them others.

Surf

[wheelz]

Call down + call down. Hand 1 sucks but he's far too laggy to consider folding, no? Hand 2 is a blind war against an unknown, there's just too many hands he could have to do anything other than call down I think

[climber]

Yeah those are both pretty standard calldowns. Nothing else you can really do here that I see.

Hand 1 looks like your beat but He could also have AA,QQ,JJ, and lots of other stuff so you cant fold.

Hand 2 looks like the standard fairly common flush draw semi-bluff or the possible made flush. You have to call down. I guess you could 3-bet/fold but that seems like spewing/stupidity to me.

[yanicehand]

I call down both, whether that's right or not... heh, been running atrociously myself.

hand 1 - I think he probbaly c/rs that flop with a good king. There's too much stuff you beat, especially when the king turns, to not call down here.

hand 2 - I really don't like it but w/no read I call it down. He could be playing pair + flush draw this way, easily, so you have a nice call down vs. an unknown.

[jdock99]

On the first hand I would probably check the turn and call the river. The reasons are that this is a classice way ahead or way behind situation. I find that the 2 big bets I save when I am checkraised by a better hand more than make up for the value I am losing by checking through the turn and losing a call or checkraise from a worse hand.

In addition, if the villain is behind he will often bluff the river with a hand he would have never called with, or he will catch a 2nd best hand on the river and bet it. The villain will never have a hand that he would have folded to a turn bet that could catch you on the river, so you are not risking losing the pot at all.

In a live b&amp;m game I probably would not play this way. But in the Party 6 max, on these types of boards I find that my opponent will have trips or a full house a very disproportionately high % of the time. I am not screaming conspiracy theory or anything, that is just the way it is with AA in this game and I deal with it like everyone else. This combined with the fact that in the rare times the villain doesnt have you beat, he will bluff/donk the river with a junk hand that would never call so you get the turn bet back anyways.

Finally, if the small blind checks the river after my turn check I will always bet the river and I find the other player will call with a hand as weak as ace high. Sometimes I will be checkraised on the river, and I will always call and most of the time lose, but in this case you still save 1 bb.

On the 2nd hand you pretty much have to just call down no matter what comes on the river even if another spade comes. Most of the time you will lose, but you will catch up on the river or have the best hand often enough that it is worth a call down.

[Surfbullet]

I 3bet the turn in hand 1.

I called the turn in hand 2.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

Hey Jdock,

IMHO we are giving up far too much equity by checking a hand as strong as AA through on the turn here. There are tons of made and drawing hands that will pay a bet, and a c/r isn't the end of the world because it will often be done with a worse hand.

Additionally, both boards are drawy so there are many cases where our opponent will have a significant # of outs, despite being behind.

Surf

[ISF]

I would call down both. I think threebetting hand 1 is pretty horrible you either let him get away from his bluff/small pair ace high cheaply, or get capped. As well sometimes they will actually fold their tiny pair.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3bet the turn in hand 1.

I called the turn in hand 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bravo, I play them identically.

[wheelz]

Interesting... I didn't consider 3-betting hand 1, but I couldn't figure out why you posted it since you clearly can't fold, so maybe I should've.

I don't want to 3-bet because I don't want him to fold if he has something hopeless... you're putting him on diamonds?

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting... I didn't consider 3-betting hand 1, but I couldn't figure out why you posted it since you clearly can't fold, so maybe I should've.

I don't want to 3-bet because I don't want him to fold if he has something hopeless... you're putting him on diamonds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 was kind of a semi-epiphany for me at the time. Staying off of autopilot is difficult for me, so I've been thinking through more things that used to be routine.

Anywho,

after SBs call-3bet preflop I think he's quite often got a PP or broadway type hand like ATs. Sometimes he'll fold a hand like AT, though probably not until seeing the river (that 1 last bet is hard to turn down for another card).

Additionally, any PP that he would 3bet pf with would be a likely candidate to play it this way, since the K is the best card in the deck for a PP 55-QQ (except set cards of course). If he has a K then good for him, but he'll raise so many other inferior hands on the turn that I felt a 3bet was in order. This doesn't even include the times he decides to semibluff-raise the turn with a diamond draw, which makes it even better.

In hand1:

I 3bet, villain called. River was a blank, check-bet-call. Villain had AJo and MHIG - got to make notes on my new buddy in this hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In hand2:

I called. River went bet-call, villain showed 52s and MHING.

Nothing to be done about it but I was curious if anyone would even consider 3betting hand 2, since folding is out of the question. This has been a standard calldown situation for me - but it was about 10 minutes after hand1 on a different table and I started to wonder if I should 3bet here, too.

Surf

[me454555]

Hand 1: Turn checkraises usually mean business but in this case I'll call down.

Sbs LRR could be almost anything b/c of his aggressive nature but I'm going to narrow the specturm of hands down to AA, KK, AK, and QQ. All those hands would potentially check raise the turn.

Theres only 1 way for him to have AA, 6 ways for him to have QQ, 1 way for him to have KK and 4 ways to have AK.

Adding all that together....
Your ahead - 6 times
Your behind - 5 times
Your splitting 1 time

Given the size of the pot and likely hood of being ahead, call down.

[timprov]

I check behind the turn, in order to get another bet out of AQ-type hands that would fold. But if you're really getting check-raised by worse hands a lot, I like a bet and calldown.

[partygirluk]

Hand 1 I think you are most likely ahead. I wait til the river to raise because he may well have some bs hand that will fold to your turn 3 bet and is drawing dead or to 2 outs v. you.

[wrto4556]

interesting 3-bet in hand 1. You're my new hero.