PDA

View Full Version : Terrorist behavior as seen on "survivor"


12-01-2001, 08:56 AM
M posted that he couldn't understand the "take them with you" attitude shown in many examples in recent years.


It is merely a manifestation of hopelessness the individual feels. They stand no chance of winning, so why not kill some of theirs before you go?


On the recent "Survivor", an alliance of 4 individuals asked the other three that were doomed if they would co-operate while being voted off the show. They did not, and intentionally voted for the jackass who came up with the idea.


Teenagers who think that life is to terrible to continue, Muslims who live in squalor while the "enemy" gets richer. They want to die, and if they are going, so are some of us.


Adam

12-01-2001, 11:40 AM
But Adam, you are not providing a reason. There are many who feel hopeless and even commit suicide without taking others with them or even desiring to take others with them, so that condition does not in itself lead to the take-others-with-you mindset.


You are saying "why not" take others too. I am asking "why." "Why not" is not an answer to my question. Besides there are a lot of good reasons "why not." Especially in cases like McDonald's mass shootings of strangers. There is no good reason period, and I am wondering what impels these hopeless, miserable people to direct their rage outward before killing themselves while others in their places would simply shoot themselves.

12-01-2001, 02:20 PM
Unfortunately, I think Adam may have provided as good an answer as there is without getting into advanced pyschology. Some people are just plain bitter and even develop a hatred for people whom they percieve as better off than themselves. There is also the susceptibility of brainwashing as in "they are the enemy and you are doing a great service to your people by making the ultimate sacrafice".

12-01-2001, 04:55 PM
Yes. However my question about taking-people-with-them is not so much about terrorists as it is about other suicides like Columbine. It may be that in the case of Columbine the students perceived certain classmates or teachers as enemies. It is hard to imagine that they perceived every single person in that school as enemies, however. Even more baffling are the cases where a guy shoots up a McDonald's before turning the gun on himself. These are total strangers to him. What causes a person to do this is primarily what I am wondering about, not why some terrorists are willing to die attacking the "enemy." I don't see the "why not" as an aswer to this. It also seems entire illogical to go out hurting people who have never done you any harm just because one is bitter. If those people had harmed you or were even part of a group which you regarded the enemy, then arguably I could see the point and motivation to a certain extent. But not total strangers like in a McDonald's shooting.

12-01-2001, 06:16 PM
M,


We cannot answer "why" because those that are rational cannot understand those that are not.


ALL humans are capable of horribly irrational behavior. Even our own recent history shows that we are capable of things that now seem inconceivable. Slavery, the oppression of women, civil war etc.


The monsters at Columbine perceive that the "others" are the enemy. I cannot understand that, but I am rational.


I cannot imagine wanting to take someone's life, but insert circumstances that I perceive to be important, and it might be possible. If someone tortured and killed someone close to me, I would certainly consider it.


These people convince themselves that their issues are important enough to take life, be it their own or others, over. It is how they convince themselves that we cannot understand. I assure you, however, that we are capable of such behavior as well.


Adam.

12-01-2001, 06:43 PM
I understand that under extreme pressure some issues may seem important enough to take life over. I understand that some people can be faced with extreme pain and pressures, and that lashing out at those who are perceived to be causing the suffering can occur at some point. What I don't easily understand is how someone can make the jump from suffering to a last act of taking the lives of strangers who have nothing whatsoever to do in any way with the causes of that person's suffering. In the case of McDonald's-type shootings of complete strangers there is not even the slightest relationship other than that we are all of the human race. I don't believe that we are all capable of that. No matter what the pressures may be, I believe many people will retain at least some ability to think logically and with some compassion and would simply never do a McDonald's-type shooting of strangers. This can also be supported by a thought-experiment: of all the suicides in this country every year, relatively few suicides took a bunch of people with them. It is highly unlikely that the ones who took others with them are precisely the ones who were suffering the most. Hence it seems that there is another factor involved other than merely the degree of pressure and pain one is experiencing. And therefore I don't believe that we all are capable of that. I do wonder what the other factors might be, or what is lacking in the makeup of the few who do take strangers with them.

12-01-2001, 11:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> What I don't easily understand is how someone can make the jump from suffering to a last act of taking the lives of strangers who have nothing whatsoever to do in any way with the causes of that person's suffering. In the case of McDonald's-type shootings of complete strangers there is not even the slightest relationship other than that we are all of the human race. </BLOCKQUOTE>


Really? I can see how this connection might come very easily to a warped mind. First, let's agree that the contemplation of taking one's own life is about as far on the brink of desperation as it gets. Now add narcissism and envy with little sense of right and wrong to begin with. Subtract any semblance of a consience and it doesn't seem too far a leap for this person to start viewing society in general (i.e. people who happen to be in a McDonald's) as their enemy.


If you were to suffer a major life setback, you might still be able to wish a friend or loved one all the success in the world while remaining sincere. Many would have the same wishes to offer, but would secretly hope the opposite. I believe the people you are asking about have this same mentality to the nth degree, hence when desperation reaches the final stage they take their frustration out on anyone who happens to be in their path before turning the gun on themselves.


I've also heard of several instances where people have killed their own family members before killing themselves. A big news item where I live is of a woman who supposedly killed 3 of her own children (and tried but failed to kill herself) in order to pay back her ex-husband for not paying enough attention to them! I can be pretty stoic at times, but I can't even read or listen to this news story without getting sick and thinking about my own children. Like Adam said, a rational mind can't even fathom such a desperate act.


I realize none of this addresses the historical aspect of your question. I have to think similar acts of desparation have always existed to some degree, but not being a historian myself I can't point any out.

12-02-2001, 05:05 AM
Yes, I sort of sort of guessed that those few who commit McDonald's-type massacres of strangers were in some way viewing the world and all people as enemies. When I say I can't easily understand how or why, the emphasis is partly on "easily," for while I can envision such a scenario for some, I can't relate to it emotionally...wishing pure strangers dead because one's self is miserable simply seems utterly foreign to me.


While I agree most or all of us are capable of a great many things, some of them terrible, I don't think most of us would be motivated to wish for such a thing, let alone act upon it, regardless of how miserable we might be or become. In a similar vein, I can't relate to the mind of someone like a Jeffrey Dahmer...yes I've read an expanation of his personality, etc., but it still seems almost unbelievable that a human being could exist, think and feel in such a mode. I might be able to understand what is going on in his mind after reading a psychological explanation, but things like these will always seem utterly foreign. The illogic of it too is simply astounding. How do these people circumvent the most obvious things, logically speaking, when they think about these ideas. Certainly emotions can be stronger than logic at times for all of us, but some things are just SO obvious logically--I mean a little kid should know some of these things (and probably does)--things like being able to differentiate between the people that may have harmed you and other people who never had anything to do with it.


Well that's enough I guess...it just leaves the perhaps unanswerable philosophical question of why, as a species, our power to harm and destroy is so much greater than our understanding and psychological maturity.