party $150-----Interesting hand between sirio and donbuttons

[Annulus]

first hour hand. im just curious to hear what people think.

50/100 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 14584366) - Sat Aug 06 00:54:03 EDT 2005
Table Multi-Table(416900) Table 12 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: mamaluke (120)
Seat 2: Sanguessuga (4335)
Seat 3: booger33 (1765)
Seat 4: XXXgames (485)
Seat 5: peteka98 (1273)
Seat 6: HarryTibb (1722)
Seat 7: BeerPongGuy (1643)
Seat 8: donbuttons_ (1425)
Seat 9: LuzrSaysDeal (1885)
Seat 10: sirio11 (2235)
XXXgames posts small blind (25)
peteka98 posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
HarryTibb folds.
BeerPongGuy folds.
donbuttons_ raises (175) to 175
LuzrSaysDeal folds.
sirio11 calls (175)
mamaluke folds.
Sanguessuga folds.
booger33 folds.
XXXgames folds.
peteka98 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3d, 2s, 3h ]
donbuttons_ bets (300)
sirio11 calls (300)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ As ]
donbuttons_ checks.
sirio11 checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 8d ]
donbuttons_ bets (245)
sirio11 raises (1000) to 1000
donbuttons_ calls (705)
donbuttons_ is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $2925 with donbuttons_
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2925 | Side Pot 1: 50
Board: [ 3d 2s 3h As 8d ]
mamaluke balance 120, didn't bet (folded)
Sanguessuga balance 4335, didn't bet (folded)
booger33 balance 1765, didn't bet (folded)
XXXgames balance 460, lost 25 (folded)
peteka98 balance 1223, lost 50 (folded)
HarryTibb balance 1722, didn't bet (folded)
BeerPongGuy balance 1643, didn't bet (folded)
donbuttons_ balance 0, lost 1425 [ Qh Qd ] [ two pairs, queens and threes -- As,Qh,Qd,3d,3h ]
LuzrSaysDeal balance 1885, didn't bet (folded)
sirio11 balance 3735, bet 1475, collected 2975, net +1500 [ Kc Ac ] [ two pairs, aces and threes -- Ac,As,Kc,3d,3h ]

[CardSharpCook]

Very well played, Sirio. I'm hoping that he calls on the river if the turn is a meaningless card. As for DB's call.... I think we can fold on this river raise.

CSC

[Tyler Durden]

I don't like Sirio's coldcall....his implied odds w/ AKs are (usually) non existant, esp. vs. a player like Don.

Also I don't like Don's river play, both the bet and the call.

If I missed some deep-level thinking here (I wouldn't be surprised at all) between two good players I would like to hear it.

[TheTimeIsUp]

He saw Sirio make a donky similar play in the Stars 150, which convinced him to call.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
He saw Sirio make a donky similar play in the Stars 150, which convinced him to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
HH?

[Annulus]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like Sirio's coldcall....his implied odds w/ AKs are (usually) non existant, esp. vs. a player like Don.

Also I don't like Don's river play, both the bet and the call.

If I missed some deep-level thinking here (I wouldn't be surprised at all) between two good players I would like to hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]


this is why i posted this hand, both players are awesome players. I like sirios play throughout the hand. my question is what does sirio do if he does not hit his ace on turn and he is facing another big bet?

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like Sirio's coldcall....his implied odds w/ AKs are (usually) non existant, esp. vs. a player like Don.

Also I don't like Don's river play, both the bet and the call.

If I missed some deep-level thinking here (I wouldn't be surprised at all) between two good players I would like to hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never liked the raise, raise, raise take on playing AKs in position. You've got position, he's got the lead. What could be better? If sirio reraise PF, he throws away his advantage - position, and the ability to see if his drawing hand hits before committing himself to doubling up DB. If sirio raise PF, DB is either going AI or folding (in this case he would go AI, obviously). If he goes AI, Sirio knows DB has the edge, but has to call. If he folds, a sweet hand with sweet position on a skilled player is wasted. I like the PF call.

CSC

[TheTimeIsUp]

To sum it up...

10-20 blinds, he button with 65s im bb, some else sb
he makes it 60
sb calls
flop 6Q9r
check/ he bets 80, sb calls
turn is another low card kind of forgot but didnt help him
sb cehcks, he bets 180
sb reraises to 590 with 400 behind
sirio pushes
sb folds and he shows

[JC_Saves]

This is a perfect example of a type of hand that tends to bother me.

How is it that it is proper to call 300 on this flop given we have just two overcards? Is it because this person led out betting that we assume that he does not have a set due to the fact he would want to trap?

And since he raise preflop do we say that he does not have a piece of this flop at all? How do we not say that he must have a pair?

[sirio11]

This was it

PokerStars Game #2271596323: Tournament #10686555, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/08/05 - 21:14:17 (ET)
Table '10686555 44' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: buzz (1420 in chips)
Seat 2: Wachovia (1560 in chips)
Seat 3: tony1967 (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: sirio11 (1380 in chips)
Seat 5: maroonechevy (1780 in chips)
Seat 6: pologuy64 (1310 in chips)
Seat 7: gaygappie (1480 in chips)
Seat 8: HitUR2outer (1630 in chips)
Seat 9: tunnny (1500 in chips)
pologuy64: posts small blind 10
MiamiMover: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sirio11 [6h 5h]
HitUR2outer: folds
tunnny: folds
buzz: folds
Wachovia: folds
tony1967: folds
sirio11: raises 40 to 60
maroonechevy: folds
pologuy64: calls 50
MiamiMover: folds
*** FLOP *** [3h Qc 5d]
pologuy64: checks
sirio11: bets 80
pologuy64: calls 80
*** TURN *** [3h Qc 5d] [8d]
pologuy64: checks
sirio11: bets 180
pologuy64: raises 400 to 580
sirio11: raises 660 to 1240 and is all-in
pologuy64: folds
sirio11 collected 1460 from pot
sirio11: shows [6h 5h] (a pair of Fives)

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like Sirio's coldcall....his implied odds w/ AKs are (usually) non existant, esp. vs. a player like Don.

Also I don't like Don's river play, both the bet and the call.

If I missed some deep-level thinking here (I wouldn't be surprised at all) between two good players I would like to hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never liked the raise, raise, raise take on playing AKs in position. You've got position, he's got the lead. What could be better? If sirio reraise PF, he throws away his advantage - position, and the ability to see if his drawing hand hits before committing himself to doubling up DB. If sirio raise PF, DB is either going AI or folding (in this case he would go AI, obviously). If he goes AI, Sirio knows DB has the edge, but has to call. If he folds, a sweet hand with sweet position on a skilled player is wasted. I like the PF call.

CSC

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it true that Sirio (usually) makes almost nothing if he flops a pair and has the best hand?

[Tyler Durden]

I don't like sirio's play preflop and on the flop, but I'd like to hear if ppl like his flop call and why.

[MLG]

its a little trickier than that because he's decided when he calls preflop that he will also call on the flop. This means that he will sometimes make money on the flop when he doesnt pair, but is still ahead. Or he makes money taking the pot away later from a hand that can't call a bet. Also he makes a lot more from AQ/KQ/AJ this way if he does hit. A lot more.

[Annulus]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like sirio's play preflop and on the flop, but I'd like to hear if ppl like his flop call and why.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think sirios call preflop means that he is not willing to take a coinflip this early in the tourney. He has position and wants to see a flop. I think his call also might slow down DonBUttons a little bit. Now Donbuttons has to be curious as to what Sirio has.

The reason I like sirios flop call here is that he cant automatically throw AK away on a rag flop against a savvy player like donbuttons. And that maybe he wants to see how dons plays the turn, and maybe sirio attempts to take the pot away here if he feels don is weak. Obviously the Ace changes everything.

[Jason Strasser]

versus sirios range of hands on the flop I think the ace is not as terrible as it may seem. I personally am going to either pot the turn and go down, or check the turn and probably check-call any river. I think sirio is going to have a hand like 88 in this spot far more often than he has an ace, but I could be wrong.

And to CSC, I dont really think AKs is a drawing hand... I mean I guarantee that sirio's flop call was one where he probably felt he was ahead about 1/3-1/2 the time, at the least. With regards to his preflop call with AK, I mean I can't see anything wrong with it. Hands like AT KJ and worse are in don's raising range, when you pop him you usually lose the shot to win a nice pot versus those hands. And if you pop him often you are looking at a coinflip. I think its a little too deep to make a huge pot preflop in this spot, but I've done it before.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
his implied odds w/ AKs are (usually) non existant, esp. vs. a player like Don.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like backwards thinking. Oh I just read what mr. goodman wrote he is right.

[adanthar]

I like the PF call. I think the flop call is iffy; if you put don on a 'reasonable' range he is ahead of you around 1/2 to 2/3 of the time on this flop plus the 1 in 7 you improve on the turn (you can do the math from here but it works out bad.) It also relies on don not to bet the turn with AQ again which he may or may not do. One thing that would make me like this more is if sirio takes this same line with aces once in a while and don knows it.

Once you get to the turn I think that's the only good way to play it.

edit: BTW this also relies on don paying sirio off, which he did on this river for some reason but should not normally do. This also ignores the times don checks the turn or maybe both the turn and river, sirio hits his K or maybe doesn't but decides to bet anyway, and then gets smacked down by aces. This flop has reverse implied odds written all over it, really.