First level set hand

[fnord_too]

Bout 150 hands on villain, 18/10/2 or there abouts, so he looks pretty solid.
This seems pretty standard to me, what do you think?

Seat 1: fnord_too ( $970 )
2nd hand, villain has 1k

Total number of players : 10
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fnord_too [ 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
UTG calls [15].
UTG+1 calls [15].
UTG+2 folds.
fnord_too calls [15].
MP1 folds.
MP2 folds.
CO folds.
Button folds.
SB calls [5].
BB checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif, J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
5 way, pot T75
SB checks.
BB checks.
UTG checks.
UTG+1 bets [60].
fnord_too calls [60].
SB folds.
BB folds.
UTG folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ K /images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
HU, Pot T195
UTG+1 bets [120].
fnord_too calls [120].
** Dealing River ** [ 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif ]
HU, pot T435
UTG+1 checks.
fnord_too pushes [775]

[freemoney]

raise the flop or turn

[fnord_too]

I can see the argument for raising the flop, but why raise the turn when it's HU?

[lastchance]

Worst slowplay EVER.

You have a set, there are 2 diamonds with 4 opponents on board. The flop is connected.

Raise flop, shove turn.

Get your money in with the best of it. Don't let scare cards scare you away from getting called on the river from weaker made hands, and make you just call instead of raising.

[curtains]

I definitely raise the flop. I just hate flat calling in these spots, you will make more profit over the longrun by raising immediately, almost without a doubt.

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see the argument for raising the flop, but why raise the turn when it's HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all the advice here (that you should probably raise the flop and get your money in with the best of it).

However, I sometimes take your line too. You smooth call on the flop trying to get more callers behind you, and you're going to make sure the flush doesn't get there on the turn before you commit more chips. Also, this way, it also looks like YOU are the one drawing at the flush, so you might get additional heavy action from an opponent with top-pair on the turn if the flush doesn't get there (he'll be looking to "make you pay" if you want to draw on the river).

In your actual hand, however, no one else calls on the flop, so you have only one opponent going to the turn. The reason for raising on the turn (the question you ask above), is that it might be the only way to make any more money on this hand. Look what happened to you...you smooth called and then pushed the river. You had to overbet $775 into a $435 pot on the end. That's an awful strong play...what's going to call that? He might even be able to get away from TPTK at that point (you did go smooth-call, smooth-call, all-in...that should look pretty scary to him).

So, raising on the turn does 3 things:
1. Builds the pot while he still has a card to come. If you raise, he might not call too much, but he'd almost certainly call a min-raise or a min-raise + a little bit extra.
2. Makes him pay in case he is drawing at a flush.
3. (This might be the most important one) Manipulates the pot size so that you can go all-in on the end if you want, and the amount of your bet will be callable for him if he has a decent hand like top-pair or 2-pair. For example, say you raise the turn to $275 and he calls. Now your all-in on the end will be a $620 bet into a $745 pot. That's probably callable by a top-pair hand.

--Zen

[freemoney]

basically my thoughts exactly

[fnord_too]

The flop I can go either way on, and mix up. The danger here is that there are draws that may get there that would have folded otherwise (though building a pot here may pot commit me later, so raising has some minor dangers, too). If I raise, I probably take down a small pot right now, maybe a draw plays with me. If I get anyone behind me I am raising a lot of turns, but if not, I plan on selling that I am on a flush draw to the good opponent who most likely has a decent made hand.

When no one comes along, I am hoping the river bricks up so I can bluff my big missed draw. It does and villain does what a good villain does here, and goes into bluff snapping mode. The pot size pretty much dictates a push here. It looks damn suspicious, but the pot is less than twice my stack so a pot size bet seems kind of lame and a small bet does not seem worth it.

Anyway, he called with A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif. Maybe this is my ring game mentality showing through inappropriately, but I am really looking to stack people when I play speculative hands in the lower levels. I would have let go of the hand if a diamond came and there was heavy action. A straight probably stacks me if I don't fill up. If a diamond comes there is a good chance I will have odds to call the turn.

Against someone I had no read on, or read as a donk, there is no way I play it this way, but against a likely good player, which means he can probably read hands, this looked pretty natural to me. (Of course I don't always play it this way, and against the same villain maybe next time I play a set that way or bluff the river with air, though doubtful on the latter until I know he remembers me and can lay down there).