This is sick.

[The Truth]

I am having some concerns regarding my total lack of respect for the value of money. I am a 22 year old college student. I play 30-60 limit full time. I play 10-20 nl on a fairly regular basis. My hourly rate is higher than my dads and he is a doctor.

I am handling the money fairly well. I am investing some of it and saving almost all of it. However, my dad makes tons of money, and he still has a respect for money. When we go shopping, he will look for the lowest priced item. When I go shopping, I feel like I am losing money to look for a cheaper item.

The fact that I devalue money is important in the game, but in actual life I look kind of like a jack ass. Especially around friends and family who don't know anything about poker. I always say, well its just 1 big bet.

Anybody have similar problems/concerns?

[The Truth]

I wanted to add some examples. Like at school I always park in the teachers zone. Why? Because the cost and probability of getting a ticket vs time saved makes parking there -ev. To everybody else, It just looks like I am a prick.

There are other examples, but that is a quick one.

[sthief09]

maybe I'm wrong, but I think everyone's like this and it's 100% human nature, to an extent

just pay your taxes and don't risk ruining all tha tyou have

[baronzeus]

Yes, I'm like this too, but I'm adjusting. I spend a lot, I enjoy treating my friends, I enjoy treating my family, and I'm always sharing the things I have. I always provide the beer for my housemates. I have no problems doing any of this, except when I'm in a rut, and my friends always understand that sometimes when I've dropped like 1500 in a couple days I just don't want to spend.

This may seem like a lot, but I never spend more than $100 or so a week in my current living situation, plus housing.

[wackjob]

You might post this in the Psychology forum. There are lots of similar type discussions there.

[timprov]

I'll be magnanimous and offer you my services. I will take all of your winnings and provide you with an income equivalent to that of your peers. That way you don't have to feel bad, and no one feels intimidated by your wealth. It's win-win.

[RunDownHouse]

Honestly, this is just a symptom of making so much. $1 to someone making $1M/year is worth a lot less than $1 to someone making $10K/year. If you're really saving most of it (and if you're a 30/60 regular, you should be investing most of it and saving some, not the other way around), then there's really not a whole lot wrong with you spending more.

I understand you may not want to get into your personal finances, but its hard being specific without knowing specifics. Still, try taking a month where you really keep track of all of your expenses. I've heard Quicken is really good for this sort of thing. See how much you're spending - and on what - versus what you're earning. I'd be surprised if you weren't socking away most of your earnings.

Also, this might be partly because of your dad's influence. When you spend more than you "should," you feel bad, even if that extra is only a tiny percentage of your income.

I have the same problem as you! I don't play as high as 30/60, but poker players train themselves to survive the downswings by doing this. I have convinced myself that losing 1500 is absolutely nothing to worry about, in fact inavoidable at times playing poker. So why should I worry about buying 100 dollar shoes or sunglasses? Funny, coz my mother spends about an hour a day clipping coupons to save 50cents on laundry detergent or whatnot.

[Transference]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody have similar problems/concerns?

[/ QUOTE ]

get bent

[Tuben]

I dont play that high but i am like your dad when it comes out side of the game but when i comes to the game and i play i dont care.

[wegs the wegs]

In a way, I'm lucky that I'm part Dutch. The thrifty characteristics are still there, never really spending more than I need to... to an extent. I play 1/2 and 2/4 NL. I'm thinking about getting an iPod, and sinking $400 into it with accessories and I woudn't really bat an eye. Yet I slug it out through pso.com to earn the points to get the gift cards to make the ipod free. Stupid, but paying for something that I can get for free with a little work is just wrong in my mind. The money can go to better use.

Just be generous with your blessed life, how many 22 year olds can make bank like you do. Give to charities, help friends out, stuff like that. Just don't be a dick about it. Treat them with respect, don't let them become mooches either.

[naphand]

Maybe everyone in the USA, but I can tell you now that even considering that everywhere there are flash wide-boys it is most definitely not a common human characteristic. This is far more socially in-bred than you may realise.

Even so, it is mostly harmless. There are better things to do with money and more considerate attitudes but, he is young...

[bernie]

Move out.

You'll learn the value real quick.

b

[jph0424]

I am also a 22 year old college student playing 10/20-30/60 short-handed and making bank. I used to be really frugal with my money but am much less so now. The thing I would suggest to you is not to look at every situation in life as +/- EV. If you have this mindset you will start giving up things that are really important to your life. If you start saying I am making $250/hour playing cards, is it worth it for me to go workout or hangout with my friends or go to class, you are heading down a bad road.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Move out.

You'll learn the value real quick.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

[misfit]

your father has a wife and at least one child to think about. he is thinking of your future and your mother's. he also seems accomplished and probably content with his life and toys dont make him any happier. you on the other hand are young, making more dough than your debt, and therefore you have disposible income. do him a solid and get him something extravagant that he would never get himself, and as long as your saving some and whatnot keep spending it, its what its there for. enjoy it money is worthless paper till u spend it.

[SittingBull]

Just wondering. How long have u been playing this limit? Texas Hold'em?
SittingBull

[Josh W]

i had this problem too, so i bought a condo in LA.

now, my girlfriend is much more frugal than i am, and i know that she is right (i own multiple pairs of $xyz sunglasses...a total waste). so, i've started investing more and saving more.

i'm thinking about another condo...

josh

[The Truth]

Thanks for the responses guys.
I've been playing for around 2 years. I have been at 30-60 full time for a couple months, since party took off the cap on number of tables. Bankroll question.. I started with like 50 bucks, and won a little tournament that paid out like 300 or something. Then I started playing small stakes NL, and progressed from there.

I do live on my own, but dad does pay my rent. My school and everything is covered by scholorship money. I think I will be picking up the rent and bills this month. My dad has a fairly strong grasp of some of the concepts of poker and bankroll management. So, he hasn't pressured me to pick up my own rent and bills, until I brought it up. However, the cost of rent etc is really insignificant at my current stakes.

Are there any other potential dangers of this sort of success? I personally have worked a couple manual labor jobs in high school, but I couldn't see myself doing it again. Not because I mind the work, but because of the tremendous gap in pay. So if the poker bubble were to bust, I'd be hard up. I'm not sure i'll be satisfied being a doctor or a manager or whatever. I guess "spoiled" is the word at least to some extent. I know there are a lot of people my age on the board in a similar situation. Its not that I am upset at my success. I worked hard to get where I am, and I earned everything I got. You don't just luck into making tons of money, you work and work and work. I dont want to seem unsatisfied.

I've strongly considered taking a couple years off school, or at least cutting down to like 2 classes. The amount of money I am making now is significantly more then I will make when I finish with school years from now as a doctor.
Anyone think that it would be a horrible idea to cut back to just a couple of classes a semester (2 intead of 4-5) and spend more time earning money while I decided exactly what I want to do with my life. I am a pre-med student and I am doing well, however I am not sure its what I actually want to do. Especially when money is not an object.
What potential negatives of this might I be missing?

thanks
blake

[SittingBull]

whether u will earn MORE money or NOT. The reason should be because u ENJOY the field of study that u are engaged in.
If the sole purpose of ur attending college is to make money,then u would do much better by specializing in 2 trades. Skilled electricians,auto mechanics,plumbers,Etc.
earn much more than the average college graduate.
****************
Remember,playing 30/60 on a reg ular basis requires a MIN. bankroll of 18K. Now this assumes that u are more of a conservative player who can frequently beat the field.
If U tend to be somewhat loose,then u will need about 36K to continue to remain viable. Again,we are assuming u can beat the field over time.
U WILL eventually run into a down slide of about 12K at some point in ur poker career.When it does occur,it will happen in a relatively short period of time. It doesn't make any difference how well u play. The trick is to have enough of a bankroll to carry u thru these occasional "storms" and while U are in the "storms",u need to continue to maintain DISCIPLINE and PATIENCE--do not start to "crack"--reduce ur playing standards.
Of course,this is easier said than done. It's difficult to do during "try" times.
If U can't handle this,u WILL be losing MORE than U should during the "stormy weathers".
**********************************
One very good poker player was having such a banner year that shew was thinking about quiting her daytime job to play poker full-time for a living.
She eventually stumbled into a "break wall" when she encountered one of thes big "storms". She decided that she had better keep her day job after all.
*************************
Even if U are making more money now then UR dad,U are really looking at the short picture.
The fact of the matter is that over a long period of many years,ur dad's income will far exceed yours.
It might NOT seem like it right now.
Remember,UR dad experiences NO money "down size".
He ALWAYS earns money. This is NOT the case for the poker pros. An excellent poker pro will lose about 30%-35% of the time that he's working. There will be months where he will LOSE money. UR dad NEVER has a LOSING month.**********************************
I agree that u should take 2 courses per semester,keep up with ur grades, and play poker more. U really should do what u enjoy doing if u can afford to do so.
In addition,U WILL encounter a "reality check" of what the REAL poker pro's like is about.
HappyPokering,
SittingBull

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]

Even if U are making more money now then UR dad,U are really looking at the short picture.
The fact of the matter is that over a long period of many years,ur dad's income will far exceed yours.
It might NOT seem like it right now.
Remember,UR dad experiences NO money "down size".
He ALWAYS earns money. This is NOT the case for the poker pros. An excellent poker pro will lose about 30%-35% of the time that he's working. There will be months where he will LOSE money. UR dad NEVER has a LOSING month.**********************************


[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't true. While I agree, It is possible to have a losing month. Note that I play between 20,000 and 40,000 hands a month. I simply make an hourly rate which is some number X. I have a significant number of hands in 30-60 thus far. My bb/100 in this particular game is starting to converge to some extent, so I have some idea as to what my hourly rate is. This number is greater than what my dad makes. I am not sure about your 30-35% figure. I just look at my income as a fixed hourly rate. So, as long as the poker bubble doesnt burst and the fish dont go away, I will continue to earn more than my father over a period of many many years.


I agree with the part about a job not being soley about money, however, money is an important factor to consider when picking a profession.

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree that u should take 2 courses per semester,keep up with ur grades, and play poker more. U really should do what u enjoy doing if u can afford to do so.
In addition,U WILL encounter a "reality check" of what the REAL poker pro's like is about.
HappyPokering,
SittingBull

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response. I appreciate you taking the time out to help me out. I am still unsure about weather I should cut back on my hours. Note that I am not cutting back on class hours in order to make sure I keep up with my grades. I have been taking a full course load with poker for 2 years now, and have had no trouble. I am doing it in order to have more time to play poker, so I can earn more money. I dont think you quite understand where I am at in the poker game. You seem to be concerned that I am unaware of the extent to which downswings can go etc. I have played many hundreds of thousands of hands of poker. I have progressed through the limits, and I have suffered horrible downswings just like everyone will encounter. I am extremely cautious with my bankroll, choosing not to progress limits without a minimum of 1000 big bets. It is excessive, but it also allows me to be comfortable with the large swings.

thanks
blake

[FatalError]

I'm 21, just bought a new car and spend a ton of cash on stuff for my apartment... those of my friends that don't think it's awesome think i'm out of my mind...

I think the problem is that some people expect us to "lose it all back" some day and we'll be in the red... my friends that play and understand don't think i'm nuts though, it's as if i landed a 150k a year job when i graduated

Best way to handle it imho is figure out your hourly rate, figure out your yearly expectation and live that way... assuming you have a seperate bankroll and savings apart from your living expenses you should'nt have a problem as long as your ROR% is low

Other than that... enjoy life while this all lasts... thats what i'm doing

one final thing, don't even consider leaving school or taking time off... that is one thing i did'nt do and i've at least got that going for me

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone think that it would be a horrible idea to cut back to just a couple of classes a semester (2 intead of 4-5) and spend more time earning money while I decided exactly what I want to do with my life. I am a pre-med student and I am doing well, however I am not sure its what I actually want to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd highly recommend you at least finish whatever degree you are currently working towards before you cut back, especially if you are close. You can always re-evaluate at that time what you want to do, but it is much better to get a diploma under your belt. Also you could lose some scholarship money if you don't stay full time.

[LostMyCaseMoney]

I'm hoping to ride the poker craze for 3-4 more years (I'm optimistic) and hope to make enough to set myself up to do what I want afterwards (not retire but do what I enjoy). That said when it doesn't last that long, I will still have a job that I don't hate and pays well to go back to but because I don't love it I would prefer not going back to it.

Many people pick a career because it pays a lot of money but years down the line they discover they live for work and don't enjoy the money or the toys they buy with it. Some of my friends decided to pursue jobs they thought would make a difference or they would enjoy but payed very low. This also didn't last long because while you don't need money to be happy you do need some to enjoy a certain standard which affords you to do things outside of work you enjoy. Finding a balance in the aspects of your life is very important and while many will call you nuts for not continuing with pre-med if you don't enjoy it finding what you do enjoy is the smart choice. Also don't count on poker for the rest of your life because once the bubble bursts very few will be able to continue on as a pro and no one will be able to continue to make as much money as they do.

Here's to hoping you find what you enjoy and that we can all live well from cards until 2010 rolls around. Cheers.

[FatalError]

who cares about doing something for society... i'm driving a sick coupe... eating absurd meals at the best restaurants in boston, and traveling all over the country to play poker... when it's over it's over but hey we could get nuked before the boom even ends

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
many will call you nuts for not continuing with pre-med if you don't enjoy it

[/ QUOTE ]

It's much easier to change direction, or come back to it later in life, with a completed degree than an incomplete one.

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
I have the same problem as you! I don't play as high as 30/60, but poker players train themselves to survive the downswings by doing this. I have convinced myself that losing 1500 is absolutely nothing to worry about, in fact inavoidable at times playing poker. So why should I worry about buying 100 dollar shoes or sunglasses? Funny, coz my mother spends about an hour a day clipping coupons to save 50cents on laundry detergent or whatnot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you buy her some nice things with your winnings...or else whats the point?

Bingo

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
I am still unsure about weather I should cut back on my hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you do, Doc, don't bother with a dictionary. Just communicate with your patients by grunting and pointing.

Tell me, which med school are you jamming through where there's time to screw around in online poker rooms for dozens of hours per week? Would that be the university of Neverland? Or is it Fantasy State College?

Also, this is the most bogus question concerning the most self-gratifying ego ride I have ever seen. You should have added a sex scene and mailed it to Penthouse.

And if your dad cannot top an online 30-60 player at his medical practice, he should do something else. Also, he should check on his kid's schooling. If he's good at money management and is still covering your rent while you stream through cash like a rap artist locked in a jewellery store, then he's really not that good at it, is he?

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]


Are there any other potential dangers of this sort of success? I personally have worked a couple manual labor jobs in high school, but I couldn't see myself doing it again. Not because I mind the work, but because of the tremendous gap in pay. So if the poker bubble were to bust, I'd be hard up. I'm not sure i'll be satisfied being a doctor or a manager or whatever. I guess "spoiled" is the word at least to some extent. I know there are a lot of people my age on the board in a similar situation. Its not that I am upset at my success. I worked hard to get where I am, and I earned everything I got. You don't just luck into making tons of money, you work and work and work. I dont want to seem unsatisfied.

I've strongly considered taking a couple years off school, or at least cutting down to like 2 classes. The amount of money I am making now is significantly more then I will make when I finish with school years from now as a doctor.
Anyone think that it would be a horrible idea to cut back to just a couple of classes a semester (2 intead of 4-5) and spend more time earning money while I decided exactly what I want to do with my life. I am a pre-med student and I am doing well, however I am not sure its what I actually want to do. Especially when money is not an object.
What potential negatives of this might I be missing?

thanks
blake

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect the older members of the forum are already well aware of the advice Im about to give you.

From a financial plannng perspective, The goal of every forward looking winning player here should be to invest in such a way that the money earned from poker is eventually replaced by investment income. We dont know how long the poker boom will last.

It sounds to me that you dont have any goals for your money. Without a defined and written plan, your chances of financial success are greatly reduced....so begin to formulate a plan for yourself ASAP. Maybe your dad could help you...Im sure he would be happy to.

There are 2 sides to the net worth coin...capital and income. Lets say you are making $200,000 from poker. A good goal in your position is that you would like to invest an amount of money that will produce this income in the future after tax, indexed by an estimate of future inflation. So you need an investment portfolio that will produce this for you as fast as possible, to negate the possibility that poker could stop tomorrow, while still having a life that you are happy with now. We should further assume that you would like to have this income without (substantially) risking your ability to produce it in the future. Lets say you expect to get 12% return on any money you invest, and you assume that this will produce a net income of 6% of the capital amount, and will replace the equivalent of $200k from poker, assumng 2% inflation. (these are just my figures, you can insert your own). This will give you a target capital amount.

So, with all that, you are trying to use your poker money to build a capital base that will replace your poker income.

In your position, saving 85% of your poker profits into investments that grow at 12% a year, and assuming a 6% after tax income rate from your capital when you begin to draw down, you would need to save 85% of your winnings every year for the next 12 years to replace a poker income that is very uncertain in the long term, and you will need around $4m in capital to replace $200k per annum. You will only be 34 and will probably be able to retire...so not too shabby.

Along the way to 'financial freedom', you are taking 15% of your poker winnings to have fun with, and you will also enjoy dividend or rental income of some sort until your poker income is fully replaced....these act like little pay rises every year.

I dont believe many people are truly comfortable financially until the income they depend upon is passive.

It sounds to me like you have a great chance to lay some solid foundations for a very bright future, professionally and financially. Dont waste your opportunities....dont be a fish.

Bingo

[Poldi]

Great advice.

[The Truth]

Thanks Bingo. Really informative and important. I appreciate it.

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am still unsure about weather I should cut back on my hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you do, Doc, don't bother with a dictionary. Just communicate with your patients by grunting and pointing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on buddy are you serious? One careless error and I am only able to communicate through grunting and pointing? cute though.


[ QUOTE ]

Tell me, which med school are you jamming through where there's time to screw around in online poker rooms for dozens of hours per week? Would that be the university of Neverland? Or is it Fantasy State College?

[/ QUOTE ]

I try to get in 24 hours per week. So exactly 2 dozen.
I don't think you read the post carefully. I am not in medical school. I am an undergraduate in a premed program.


[ QUOTE ]

Also, this is the most bogus question concerning the most self-gratifying ego ride I have ever seen. You should have added a sex scene and mailed it to Penthouse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I diddn't intend for it to be a bogus question. You are right, I should have hadded a sex scene. I can think of one with me and this blonde girl and her hot freaky roommate if you want me to tell it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[ QUOTE ]
And if your dad cannot top an online 30-60 player at his medical practice, he should do something else. Also, he should check on his kid's schooling.

[/ QUOTE ]

All doctors don't have their own practice. My dad is the director of an Emergency Room where we are from. Do you know how much an online 30-60 player makes 4 tabling?


[ QUOTE ]
If he's good at money management and is still covering your rent while you stream through cash like a rap artist locked in a jewellery store, then he's really not that good at it, is he?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. The rap artist line is golden (a little offensive to rap artists, but still golden). I don't think its quite that extreme, and I appreciate my dad not forcing me to pick up my own rent until my income became stable. My dad diddn't expect my income to become stable until I graduated medical school. So, poker is awesome to him.

[wackjob]

Invest in real estate/raw land in an up and coming area and you will be set for the rest of your life. Where I live land was selling for 25K/acre less than 10 years ago. It now sells at 500K/acre inside the city.

[FredJones888]

I have an idea.

Pay yourself a salary that is enough to live on plus have a little fun occasionally . This way you won't have all that money sloshing around burning a hole in your pocket. If you don't have easy access to the money you won't spend it.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
In your position, saving 85% of your poker profits into investments that grow at 12% a year, and assuming a 6% after tax income rate from your capital when you begin to draw down, you would need to save 85% of your winnings every year for the next 12 years to replace a poker income that is very uncertain in the long term, and you will need around $4m in capital to replace $200k per annum. You will only be 34 and will probably be able to retire...so not too shabby.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems excessive. If he's living off 30K, why does he need to replace the whole 200K? Even a fraction of that in passive income would be huge for most people. Not that it's not a good goal, but it shouldn't take 12 years to be comfortable at that income level.

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In your position, saving 85% of your poker profits into investments that grow at 12% a year, and assuming a 6% after tax income rate from your capital when you begin to draw down, you would need to save 85% of your winnings every year for the next 12 years to replace a poker income that is very uncertain in the long term, and you will need around $4m in capital to replace $200k per annum. You will only be 34 and will probably be able to retire...so not too shabby.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems excessive. If he's living off 30K, why does he need to replace the whole 200K? Even a fraction of that in passive income would be huge for most people. Not that it's not a good goal, but it shouldn't take 12 years to be comfortable at that income level.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are pretty much just made up figures...but a 22 year old with rent paid should be able to live off 30k...with little incresaes each year from dividend income etc as living starts to become more expensive, on average, as you get older. With those figures however, it is about 12 years saving 85% to replace it all with passive income...but the personal comfort level of income is another figure that I would have no idea of how to estimate for anyone except myself...hence the 'replace it all' angle.

Bingo