Ab Exercises/Getting that 6-pack

[ctv1116]

I've been trying to strengthen my abs to help correct the lower back pain I've been having (OK, I admit it, I just wanna have a sweet 6-pack). I only have a small layer of fat in my stomach area, which of course I will need to have to burn off. Otherwise, I was wondering what exercises are optimal for strengthening the abs. I've been doing the first few exercises on this list (http://exercise.about.com/od/abs/ss/abexercises.htm) to get myself going. A couple questions:

1. Are these the best ab exercises?

2. Do you need rest days between ab exercises like working with your arms, chest etc., or is this an endurance thing where you can do it pretty much every day?

[Matty]

Yeah just do the bicycle exercise- it's the best. I wetn from a little bit of a pot belly to a six-pack within a month.

For the first couple weeks I did it every other day, but I don't get sore any more, so it's every day.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah just do the bicycle exercise- it's the best. I wetn from a little bit of a pot belly to a six-pack within a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call BS. You can't go from pot belly to six pack without doing some real cardio to take the fat off.

[Macdaddy Warsaw]

You want to be doing back extensions for the lower back pain, not ab exercises.

EDIT: Also, it's generally acknowledged that your abs don't need as much time to heal as other parts of your body, so you want to be doing them everyday, assuming you're not sore.

[Matty]

okay...

I was lifting weights at the time as well, but no cardio.

[ QUOTE ]
okay...

I was lifting weights at the time as well, but no cardio.

[/ QUOTE ]

There you go. That post of yours was a bit deceptive. You made it sound like you can get a 6 pack just from the bicycle exercise which is just false.

[Matty]

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask if I was doing anything else than "call bs"?

[Alobar]

yeah, cuz lifting weights just burns so much fat (thats sarcasm)


these threads are always so stupid. Its mostly people who have no idea what they are talking about, giving out lots of bad advice. If you wanna learn what to do for abs, go down to the bookstore and look at some exersise books, there are lots of them specifically for your abs. Youll learn alot more there than you will from this thread

[Warik]

1. I didn't look at the list. I'll just tell you what has worked for me over the years.

Crunches. Crunches are *the absolute best* exercise for training your upper abs. Crunches on exercise ball are better.
Do not waste your time with situps. Situps do more work on the hip flexors than anything else.

Other great ones are leg raises (lay flat on your back, hands under your butt, legs straight out and raise to about a 45 degree angle and bring back down - don't touch the floor), and hanging knee raises (hang from a pull up bar, bring your knees up, lower them down, repeat).

Why such a small list of exercises? Because you don't need to know 10 or 20. Why? Because...

2. Yes, you do need rest days, and most people who train their abs train them wrong. You don't need to do 100 crunches every day to get a 6-pack. In fact, doing 100 crunches every day is the reason most people don't have decent abs. The abdominals are a muscle just like your biceps, quadriceps, pecs, etc... They are composed mostly of fast-twitch muscle fibers - which means they respond better to low repetition weight training as opposed to high volume work. The lower abs have a little more slow-twitch in them than the upper abs and do respond better to a few more reps, but certainly not in the 100s.

Here are my suggestions:

Pick two days a week to train abs, space them out so you get maximum rest between them. Examples: Monday & Thursday, Tuesday & Friday, etc... Do 3 sets of 10 crunches and 3 sets of 12 lying leg raises. Do them with a smooth tempo and focus on doing them *perfectly*. Rest 2 minutes between each set.

When you are able to do all 3 sets with perfect form, start adding weight. For the crunches put a dumbbell or weight plate on your chest or behind your head. Keep working till you do them perfectly and then move up. For the leg raises, hold a dumbbell between your feet.

This will hurt the next day the first few times more than doing a bunch of sit ups ever did.

Note that this alone will not give you a well-defined stomach. You can do this for 20 years and if you don't have low bodyfat, you won't see a thing (but anyone who punches you in the stomach will regret it because under that fat you'll have a solid wall of abs).

However... my bodyfat is naturally low due to my metabolism, so I am completely useless if you need info on that. Hop on a treadmill or something I guess.

Lifting weighs can burn fat. When you do leg workouts with weights, for example, and your pulse is getting up into teh 160 range consistently with each lift then you are burning fat and adding muscle.

[TStoneMBD]

on a side note id like to hear what anyone has to say about the following:

i was watching this infomercial on a product called slendertone. its one of those bands that go around your waist and is supposed to electroshock your muscles to work. in the past these things were said to be a scam, but this one looked like it might actually work especially since jerry rice was on the program talking about he himself uses it. people think that its a cakewalk to use this program, but it became apparent that the belt can certainly hurt as it simulates an actual workout.

i searched google for reviews on the product and it seems that people finding it to work. alot of people were mentioning how they toned alot of their muscles in their body and look much better. alot of people who appeared to be fat posted poor reviews saying that slendertone didnt do anything for them, but that is because slendertone is designed for slender people who arent overweight but just want to tone their muscles. a person with 4 inches of gut on them isnt going to suddenly become skinny. he will have stronger muscles but he wont even see them.

anyone know anything about this?

[The Stranger]

lay off the donuts

[Joe826]

oh oh! here's a thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=2184001&Fo rum=,,f20,,&Words=workout&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Ma in=2184001&Search=true&where=sub&Name=&daterange=1 &newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyp rev=#Post2184001) where i spread lots of misinformation about ab workouts.

i think the bicycle one is best.

[chuddo]

bicycle crunches and normal crunches. leg lifts as well. as others have posted.

for a while now i have been swimming laps on a regular basis and have found it is the best exercise i have ever routinely had.

has burned off a lot and toned up muscles i had never really worked before to give a better overall physique.

[LSUfan1]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, cuz lifting weights just burns so much fat (thats sarcasm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Your sarcasm meter must be broken! Lifting weights alone will add muscle. The more muscle you have on your body, the more fat your burn at rest. It's called elevating the BMR. (Basil Metabolic Rate)

[Smarty]

Everyone has a 6-pack. How well it is shown is based on your body fat percentage. The best exercise for getting a 6-pack is done in the kitchen.

[Blarg]

Stomach exercises and back and side exercises are all important. What you're looking for is what peopple are popularly calling "core" strength or "core" stability. The muscles that support and move your trunk -- obliques, abs, muscles around the ribs, lower back, hip flexors -- qualify. For optimum back health, you need to develop all of them.

The link you gave is a bit lame. For one, it recommends one of those foolish "ab rocker" t.v. chairs. They suck.

Personally, I like ab wheels a lot. They can give all of your core muscles a tremendous work-out in almost no time at all. They're generally no more than 20 bucks, and some of the cheapest ones are half that, but you want one with at least some width to the wheel so you have a little stability rolling out. Roll out from the knees, and use your abs to pull you in, not your arms. Keep your arms with the elbows locked or almost locked. Feeling like you're pushing back with the butt instead of pulling back with the arms, back, or shoulders will do a lot to help you concentrate on firing your abs and making them do the work. They'll do plenty of work if you do the movement in a sloppy way too, but you really don't want to turn it into a back/arms exercise. You want those abs strong enough not to need to "cheat". When you get strong enough, do the ab wheel roll-outs from a full standing position. Start very slow at first; even half a dozen from the knees might give you a sore feeling.

There are also ab wheels with footstraps, and you use your hands to walk out along the floor. These are more comfortable for doing certain exercises like walking up and down your living room instead of doing static jack-knifing of your body.

You can work the abs every day.

To really get a six pack to show, it's mostly about diet, not muscle. Unless you know how to manage your diet to keep lean, you can probably forget about a six-pack unless you're a very committed athlete making serious work-outs a big part of your lifestyle. And maybe not even then. You can't spot reduce fat; it comees off your whole body. So lay off the six-packs if you want to have a six-pack.

[Malachii]

The best book ever written on the subject (certainly the best I've ever read) can be found here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671014080/qid=1123312730/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7219518-3989513?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

Seriously, highly reccomended.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hey these are my abs:

http://www.geocities.com/larryownsyou/lng2.jpg

Sorry for the fuzzy picture. Anyways I've maintained these babies for well over 5 years now. I use to be a fat kid who had poor metabolism. If you want abs I'm gonna tell you how.

First off, abs won't show with fat over it. If you've got a gut, pot belly, big ass bowl in your tummy you need to get rid of it. To do that you need to do cardio, lots of cardio ..at least a good 40-50 minutes a session.

Do that consitently, cut down on hydrogenated, processed, refined [censored] too and keep your diet natural.

Now the key to maximizing any muscle group is isolate it and isolate that group only. The problem with sit ups and most other very repetitive workouts like the bike kick is that it's useless. Not only are they useless, but they hurt/strain your back and neck.

The abs are just like any other muscle group. You need to do sets, reps, and they need to work to the point of exhaustion to grow muscle.

1. At my gym I use a special ab machine ( I can't find a picture of it sorry) where you lie down and weights can be inserted either by the feet and/or near the head. Basically if the weights are inserted by the feet, it increases difficulty, if the weights are inserted by the head it decresases it.

The great thing about this machine is that you don't need to do like 100 sit ups. You can gradually add/take off more/less weights and just simply crunch up to get a full ab workout. There is no strain on your back or neck as you use your legs and arms to assist you.

2. I love the ab roller. Again this machine is great cuz there is no strain on the neck or back. To the use the ab roller well, you don't do 100 crunches. You bring yourself up as far as you can and then hold for either 5 or 10 or 15 seconds depending on how strong your abs are. Do this 4 times. Take a break, repeat, and then turn over and lie on your left/right side and do the same thing only this time working your side muscles. AGain hold each set for 5/10/15 seconds whatever your pain threshold is.

3. To do the lower abs I usually sit my ass on a bench, place my arms behind me on the bench for support, raise my legs and bring them in so they are in a tucked position towards my tummy. Then i stretch them out and bring them in again.

4. To get that horseshoe line around the abs, you can grab a weight with one hand, place your other hand on your forehead and just dip the weight down and bring it back up. Do this for about 10 reps and increase the weight each time.

Remember, the key thing is not to strain your back/neck and I find that resistance and adding weights is the best way to make the ab muscle grow and define itself. You will also have to work out other parts of your body too to keep the metabolism up, but intermixing the cardio/strength training will be most beneficial. Remember, abs are just like the chest muscle/back muscle. You need to work it out hard for a session and give it rest. I usually do abs 1 - 1.5 times a week and that's it. You don't need to do sit ups everyday otherwise it will actually backfire on you.

Sorry if the write-up is erratic, it's late I'm kinda tired.

Hope this helps.

Lawrence

[Ianco15]

Get in the thinking position for as long as you can (hopefully at least 30 seconds). Gradually increase the amount of time you hold it.

To get into the thinking position lie flat on your stomache like youre about to do a push up. Instead of doing a push up, lift yourself up with your elbows and hold yourself rigid about a foot off the ground. Your abs should be tight.

[citanul]

Lawrence,

Thanks for all your input in your post.

One thing:

[ QUOTE ]
4. To get that horseshoe line around the abs, you can grab a weight with one hand, place your other hand on your forehead and just dip the weight down and bring it back up. Do this for about 10 reps and increase the weight each time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help?

I don't understand what that means. I'm picturing like bending to the side while holding a weight and holding my forehead. If this is about right, lemme know. If not, same.

Thanks,

citanul

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Lawrence,

Thanks for all your input in your post.

One thing:

[ QUOTE ]
4. To get that horseshoe line around the abs, you can grab a weight with one hand, place your other hand on your forehead and just dip the weight down and bring it back up. Do this for about 10 reps and increase the weight each time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help?

I don't understand what that means. I'm picturing like bending to the side while holding a weight and holding my forehead. If this is about right, lemme know. If not, same.

Thanks,

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Citanul,

This is basically what you do. Grab a 25 pound weight (or whatever feels right for you), with your right arm. Keep the arm extended vertically by your hip holding the weight.

Now take your left hand and put it on your ear so it cups your left ear. You should kinda look like a human tea pot at this point.

Now lower the right side of your body keeping your right arm straight while using the weight on your arm to help you lower yourself. Do this slowly so you feel a good stretch along the lower left side of your love handles.

Then slowly bring yourself back up till you are back at your starting position. Repeat this about 10 to 15 times. Vary the weight.

Now do the same reversing the hands. If you work it hard enough, your lower side abs will feel like a truck ran over them the next day, but you will also feel like the muscle.

Hope this helps. If you wanna learn more about good body workouts read Men's Health - best magazine IMHO.

Lawrence

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
I love the ab roller.

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to double-check before I go buy one .. you're talking about one of these (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3312598&cat=49038&type=21&d ept=4125&path=0%3A4125%3A4134%3A49038) , rather than one of those little wheels, right? Is there much of a difference between different brands?

[STLantny]

Most of the information that Lawrence posted, at least the main points are wrong. You do not need to isolate the muscle, isolation exercises are mainly for pro body builders (that isnt to say you shouldnt do some isolation exercises). My fear from his post, is that you will do nothing in the gym, but ab exercises, and run. You will def not get a six pack this way. Also, lifting weight burns more fat than any other exercise, because you build more muscle, and muscle in turn burns more fat throughout the day ( i think alobar was the one that said sarcastacilly that weight lifting does burn fat). Smarty was right on target about good abs are made in the kitchen.
Eat clean, and lower your cals below your BMR,

do heavy compound exersices (if you arent really out of shape), such as squats, deadlifts, cleans, benchpress etc.

do not do long drawn out cardio sessions, do short very intensive 20-30 min sessions, such as sprinting, running at a fast pace uphill, etc.

2 ingredients are needed for abs, low body fat percentage, and some amount of fat.
Im not saying that you cant get abs other ways, such as a lot of cardio, etc, but this is the proven quickest way to acheive your goal.

[IronDragon1]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
Most of the information that Lawrence posted, at least the main points are wrong. You do not need to isolate the muscle, isolation exercises are mainly for pro body builders. Also, lifting weight burns more fat than any other exercise, because you build more muscle, and muscle in turn burns more fat throughout the day ( i think alobar was the one that said sarcastacilly that weight lifting does burn fat). Smarty was right on target about good abs are made in the kitchen.
Eat clean, and lower your cals below your BMR,

do heavy compound exersices (if you arent really out of shape), such as squats, deadlifts, cleans, benchpress etc.

do not do long drawn out cardio sessions, do short very intensive 20-30 min sessions, such as sprinting, running at a fast pace uphill, etc.

2 ingredients are needed for abs, low body fat percentage, and some amount of fat.
Im not saying that you cant get abs other ways, such as a lot of cardio, etc, but this is the proven quickest way to acheive your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You win.

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the information that Lawrence posted, at least the main points are wrong. You do not need to isolate the muscle, isolation exercises are mainly for pro body builders. Also, lifting weight burns more fat than any other exercise, because you build more muscle, and muscle in turn burns more fat throughout the day ( i think alobar was the one that said sarcastacilly that weight lifting does burn fat). Smarty was right on target about good abs are made in the kitchen.
Eat clean, and lower your cals below your BMR,

do heavy compound exersices (if you arent really out of shape), such as squats, deadlifts, cleans, benchpress etc.

do not do long drawn out cardio sessions, do short very intensive 20-30 min sessions, such as sprinting, running at a fast pace uphill, etc.

2 ingredients are needed for abs, low body fat percentage, and some amount of fat.
Im not saying that you cant get abs other ways, such as a lot of cardio, etc, but this is the proven quickest way to acheive your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually do. I also should make a plug for t-nation.com, they are the twoplustwo of bodybuilding, it may be a little hardcore for the average douche bag gym rat, but there is so much good info there.

[IronDragon1]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
Most of the information that Lawrence posted, at least the main points are wrong. You do not need to isolate the muscle, isolation exercises are mainly for pro body builders. Also, lifting weight burns more fat than any other exercise, because you build more muscle, and muscle in turn burns more fat throughout the day ( i think alobar was the one that said sarcastacilly that weight lifting does burn fat). Smarty was right on target about good abs are made in the kitchen.
Eat clean, and lower your cals below your BMR,

do heavy compound exersices (if you arent really out of shape), such as squats, deadlifts, cleans, benchpress etc.

do not do long drawn out cardio sessions, do short very intensive 20-30 min sessions, such as sprinting, running at a fast pace uphill, etc.

2 ingredients are needed for abs, low body fat percentage, and some amount of fat.
Im not saying that you cant get abs other ways, such as a lot of cardio, etc, but this is the proven quickest way to acheive your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually do. I also should make a plug for t-nation.com, they are the twoplustwo of bodybuilding, it may be a little hardcore for the average douche bag gym rat, but there is so much good info there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my God that is so money. I credit Chad Waterbury's pieces there on upping training volume with making me the man I am today and I have a feeling the latest by Charles Poliquin (the lactic acid training one) will do the same.

[Blarg]

He seems to be fairly alone in his belief on that lactic acid thing. He admits as much there, but says he has his beliefs anyway.

[IronDragon1]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
He seems to be fairly alone in his belief on that lactic acid thing. He admits as much there, but says he has his beliefs anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the approach-to me at least-is based on the same mechanism of something like drop sets; stressing muscles for a longer continous period of time has been shown to increase anabolic hormone levels so it is sound on that level.

Most of all though, its just a way to fit in a second super hardcore session for each of my muscle groups during the week

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lawrence,

Thanks for all your input in your post.

One thing:

[ QUOTE ]
4. To get that horseshoe line around the abs, you can grab a weight with one hand, place your other hand on your forehead and just dip the weight down and bring it back up. Do this for about 10 reps and increase the weight each time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help?

I don't understand what that means. I'm picturing like bending to the side while holding a weight and holding my forehead. If this is about right, lemme know. If not, same.

Thanks,

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Citanul,

This is basically what you do. Grab a 25 pound weight (or whatever feels right for you), with your right arm. Keep the arm extended vertically by your hip holding the weight.

Now take your left hand and put it on your ear so it cups your left ear. You should kinda look like a human tea pot at this point.

Now lower the right side of your body keeping your right arm straight while using the weight on your arm to help you lower yourself. Do this slowly so you feel a good stretch along the lower left side of your love handles.

Then slowly bring yourself back up till you are back at your starting position. Repeat this about 10 to 15 times. Vary the weight.

Now do the same reversing the hands. If you work it hard enough, your lower side abs will feel like a truck ran over them the next day, but you will also feel like the muscle.

Hope this helps. If you wanna learn more about good body workouts read Men's Health - best magazine IMHO.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm personally a fan of side-bridges, and I'm certain that if you add those to the side bends (basically the same concept), you could get seriously cut.

Laying on your side, you use your elbow/forearm for support. Propped up on your elbow (directly under the shoulder, btw), lift your hips off the ground so all that is touching the floor is your arm and your foot. Hold this position for 20 seconds (beginners) and work your way up gradually to 1 minute per rep. 3 reps on each side, alternating, 30 seconds of rest between reps.

[poincaraux]

I'm in pretty good shape. Over the last three years, I've run two trail marathons and one 1/2 marathon. I play ultimate frisbee for a club team (lots of sprinting, etc.). We practice 5-6 hours/week and I play league frisbee (not as much of a workout) for another 2 hours/week. I also do some running (mix of longer distance stuff and short track workouts) ~2 times/week.

I eat fairly healthy food, but my eating schedule is not so regular (I often skip breakfast, eat lunch late, eat dinner late, etc.).

Despite all of the exercise, there's still a layer of fat over my abs. I recently started doing 200-300 situp-type-exercises and 100-200 pushups/triceps 4-5 days per week. I've only been doing those for a month or so, but they seem to be helping quite a bit.

I'm tired of not having good abs, though, so I'd like to take the shortest path to a six-pack.

So, from this thread, I'm thinking of

1) buying an ab roller and using it instead of my normal situps
2) going to the gym (this is harder .. i have both knee and shoulder injuries that hurt when i lift)
3) straightening out my eating schedule.

i've never heard of BMR before .. is this (http://www.hussman.org/fitness/bmrcalc.htm) the right stuff?

[XxGodJrxX]

Don't waste your money on an ab-roller. The best thing to do will be to join a gym. The best thing to do for abs, or any other muscle, is big compound movements. Since you say you cannot join a gym, then do sit-ups, leg raises, push-ups, dips, and pull-ups around the house. Do high-intensity cardio (I like to DDR myself /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Eat clean. No fast-food ever. A cutting diet should have a high amount of protein, moderate carbs, and low fats. Getting a six pack to show is all about sticking to the diet.

USEFUL LINKS: www.JohnStoneFitness.com (http://www.JohnStoneFitness.com) , www.BodyBuilding.com (http://www.BodyBuilding.com)

[sublime]

squat, deadlif, bench press and eat a clean diet.


your abs take up less than 5% of your overall skeletal muscle. "working them" is like staying up late at night wondering how you will play your royal flushes this year.

[poincaraux]

If lifting is really the key, I'll just do as much as I can without making my injuries worse. I think my knees can handle quite a bit these days. I'm a grad student, so the university gym is free.

Thanks for the other advice. I'll check out the links in the morning.

[Blarg]

I think that it's generally held that the anabolic hormone level increases are extremely small, so much so that they really don't matter much at all.

I'm certainly no scientist myself, just passing along what I've read casually, including stuff on t-nation itself.

[XxGodJrxX]

If it is your knees that are bothering you, you may be able to do lighter squats without hurting them. Since it sounds like you have not lifted before, make sure you start light. The target would be to do between 8-10 reps for each exercise. For the first two or three weeks, do about 12 reps for each exercise. I would concentrate on compound movements, like bench presses and pullups (you could still do some isolation movements, just don't go crazy doing bicep curls). Those websites I wrote down are excellent sources for anybody that is just starting out, I would go there if I were you for more info.

[IronDragon1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it's generally held that the anabolic hormone level increases are extremely small, so much so that they really don't matter much at all.

I'm certainly no scientist myself, just passing along what I've read casually, including stuff on t-nation itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's certainly not taking hormones themselves, but the increases-as small as they are-aggregated over several hundred training sessions could make a difference.

On a related note, I find that I have trouble training closer to where the muscle is actually near failure unless I use the higher intensity techniques like compound sets/drop sets/partials and they provide a greater calorie burn than just straight sets-which is necessary for a butter boy like myself.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
squat, deadlif, bench press and eat a clean diet.


your abs take up less than 5% of your overall skeletal muscle. "working them" is like staying up late at night wondering how you will play your royal flushes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many health and bodybuilding publications have shown research to prove that this is wrong. While its true that your abs are a relatively small muscle group, they can be somewhat difficult to isolate (upper abs, lower abs, obliques), and actually, working on them will increase strength in other areas (core power).

While the squat, deadlift, and clean are 3 very important exercises, they are basic ones that go for large muscle groups. There's a reason they make a leg extension machine for your quads even though squat racks are readily available, etc. Isolation is important.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
squat, deadlif, bench press and eat a clean diet.


your abs take up less than 5% of your overall skeletal muscle. "working them" is like staying up late at night wondering how you will play your royal flushes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

bah, i think you're totally underestimating the PV of good abs relative to the PV of other muscle groups.

citanul

[sublime]

bah, i think you're totally underestimating the PV of good abs relative to the PV of other muscle groups.

not at all. i spent a winter getting my BF% to sub 10% levels in order to improve the aesticis (sp) of my mid section. i did 10 weighted situps once a week.

[sublime]

Isolation is important.

For professional bodybuilders who already have phenominal pysiques? yes.

for the average drug free trainer? waste of time. period.

[Voltron87]

working your abs is so overrated.


unless your actually an athelete, in which case it is extremely important.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Isolation is important.

For professional bodybuilders who already have phenominal pysiques? yes.

for the average drug free trainer? waste of time. period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Also overlooked in the post you're responding to is that things like deadlifts and squats and big compound exercises require a lot of stabilization from the core, and work the core that way already.

I'm all for getting the abs stronger, and think there are many ways to do it, but isolation exercises are of very little benefit to someone not already in great shape, and particularly when it comes to abs, you're going to have your best chance to get them showing simply by watching your diet.

For what it's worth, the big exercises like squats and deadlifts can release so much growth hormone that they help burn fat on their own, and put on muscle that helps burn fat. Do those heavy and you'll find effects all over your body, including your stomach.

I haven't been doing any ab work for weeks, and even though I've started eating like a pig to put on mass, they show more clearly now because deadlifts are working my core and pumping out growth hormone. Weird, but doubling my food intake and laying off the ab exercises actually made my abs look better.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
working your abs is so overrated.


unless your actually an athelete, in which case it is extremely important.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably where I get my viewpoint. I'm a kicker (laugh all you want...) and the ab muscles, along with good hip flexors, are much more important for me to be able to kick a 45-yard field goal than huge quads. I did the huge quads thing in HS and at one point was leg pressing about 550-600 pounds. All that did was slow me down...(end of side story).

There's good arguments on both sides. Abs are highly important, and nobody's denying that. Yes, doing the "core lifts" will make them stronger. Isolating them will make them stronger faster, and it will help stabilization in those core exercises. What I do know is that the really well-cut six pack requires extra training. Cardio, core, and diet to show it, more work to show it OFF. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
your abs take up less than 5% of your overall skeletal muscle. "working them" is like staying up late at night wondering how you will play your royal flushes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree, the best line i ever heard was already mentioned in this thread about how you get abs in the kitchen. plus i am wondering why nobody is talking about pushups b/c they too are great for your abs and overall strength.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isolation is important.

For professional bodybuilders who already have phenominal pysiques? yes.

for the average drug free trainer? waste of time. period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Also overlooked in the post you're responding to is that things like deadlifts and squats and big compound exercises require a lot of stabilization from the core, and work the core that way already.

I'm all for getting the abs stronger, and think there are many ways to do it, but isolation exercises are of very little benefit to someone not already in great shape, and particularly when it comes to abs, you're going to have your best chance to get them showing simply by watching your diet.

For what it's worth, the big exercises like squats and deadlifts can release so much growth hormone that they help burn fat on their own, and put on muscle that helps burn fat. Do those heavy and you'll find effects all over your body, including your stomach.

I haven't been doing any ab work for weeks, and even though I've started eating like a pig to put on mass, they show more clearly now because deadlifts are working my core and pumping out growth hormone. Weird, but doubling my food intake and laying off the ab exercises actually made my abs look better.

[/ QUOTE ]

NAIL ON HEAD

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, lifting weight burns more fat than any other exercise, because you build more muscle, and muscle in turn burns more fat throughout the day ( i think alobar was the one that said sarcastacilly that weight lifting does burn fat).

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* so many people are sooo misinformed. yes its true the more muscle you have the more calories you burn in a day. When you actually learn how many calories more 1 pound of muscle burns in a day, and how long it actually takes to create a pound of muslce, you will realize this whole "more muscle = more weight loss" thing is just total propaganda.

You wanna lose weight, go do cardio. You should be lifting weights for a ton of reasons, weight loss just isnt one of them.

[STLantny]

the advice I have given is mainly for a new weight trainee. The big compound movements will get him well enough on his way so that when he drops body fat due to increase of muscle/better diet, he will have a 6 pack. IMO, the best exercises for a thick bicep are the squat and deadlift. The guys who know their stuff understand what Im saying.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your abs take up less than 5% of your overall skeletal muscle. "working them" is like staying up late at night wondering how you will play your royal flushes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree, the best line i ever heard was already mentioned in this thread about how you get abs in the kitchen. plus i am wondering why nobody is talking about pushups b/c they too are great for your abs and overall strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another exercise in which the ab benefits you get, if any, are much less intense than an actual ab workout and are, as far as I can tell, inconsequential.

Now, doing pushups burns calories and improves your chest, triceps, shoulders and back directly. An overall upper body improvement will also lead to the appearance of better abs.

[censored], I really should've gone into training instead of mass comm here...

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
the advice I have given is mainly for a new weight trainee. The big compound movements will get him well enough on his way so that when he drops body fat due to increase of muscle/better diet, he will have a 6 pack. IMO, the best exercises for a thick bicep are the squat and deadlift. The guys who know their stuff understand what Im saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know my stuff pretty well. The biggest way to drop weight and cut fat is by doing cardio and cleaning up your diet. Any reputable publication will tell you that.

Yes, lifting will also burn calories, and will lead to a growth in muscle and in turn cut a small amount more fat. However, you lost me at "the best workout for a thick bicep is squats and deadlifts". Squats don't even have anything to do with your biceps.

Edit to add: Yeah, what Alobar said... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sublime]

However, you lost me at "the best workout for a thick bicep is squats and deadlifts". Squats don't even have anything to do with your biceps.

Your last sentance is 100% wrong. Squats have EVERYTHING to do with how big your arms are.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
However, you lost me at "the best workout for a thick bicep is squats and deadlifts". Squats don't even have anything to do with your biceps.

Your last sentance is 100% wrong. Squats have EVERYTHING to do with how big your arms are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm....I'm really, really missing this here. Now, FWIW, I've only been lifting for, what, 5 years now. But the way I've always done squats was to have the bar resting across my shoulders behind my head, and then to bend at the knees until I reach slightly below parallel, then to raise back up. With the Smith machine, its not even necessary (technically) to hold on to the bar with your arms.

Please, if I'm wrong, correct me, by all means.

Just for fun: Linky (http://www.intense-workout.com/leg_exercises.html)

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, you lost me at "the best workout for a thick bicep is squats and deadlifts". Squats don't even have anything to do with your biceps.

Your last sentance is 100% wrong. Squats have EVERYTHING to do with how big your arms are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm....I'm really, really missing this here. Now, FWIW, I've only been lifting for, what, 5 years now. But the way I've always done squats was to have the bar resting across my shoulders behind my head, and then to bend at the knees until I reach slightly below parallel, then to raise back up. With the Smith machine, its not even necessary (technically) to hold on to the bar with your arms.

Please, if I'm wrong, correct me, by all means.

Just for fun: Linky (http://www.intense-workout.com/leg_exercises.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that you are proving links on how to do a squat, instead of thinking about why you may be wrong, shows that no matter what i say its not going to change your mind.

i am right though, and am quite certain of it.

i suggest you reasecrh the subject, starting with the writings of Arthur Jones (created nautilus machines) and Dr. Ken Leistner.

[Voltron87]

if you didnt use your arms to do squats the weight of the bar would all be on your shoulders and back. that would hurt.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, lifting weight burns more fat than any other exercise, because you build more muscle, and muscle in turn burns more fat throughout the day ( i think alobar was the one that said sarcastacilly that weight lifting does burn fat).

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* so many people are sooo misinformed. yes its true the more muscle you have the more calories you burn in a day. When you actually learn how many calories more 1 pound of muscle burns in a day, and how long it actually takes to create a pound of muslce, you will realize this whole "more muscle = more weight loss" thing is just total propaganda.

You wanna lose weight, go do cardio. You should be lifting weights for a ton of reasons, weight loss just isnt one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are long-term goals, and short-term goals. If you're only in it for the short term, almost everything you do is useless, because even if you get your abs to show for a while, they'll be covered up in fat pretty soon anyway. That's no good unless you're just training for a bodybuilding contest and only need your abs to show for a week or two.

But people who want long-term results are well served by things that take a while to pay off but have long-lasting benefits. What they need is not a quick fix but a lifestyle change. They can get that through fixing their diet, fixing their sleep, and doing things with long-term pay-offs.

Further, it isn't only the extra muscle burning off fat that makes doing full body weight lifting exercises a fat burner, it's the release of growth hormone that they cause. You won't release any to speak of by doing isolation curls, but you will with squats and deadlifts. The increased hormone release is itself a fat burner.

In my eyes, all exercise is good exercise, and certainly better than nothing. But I'd leave plenty of room in there for strength building through weightlifting or bodyweight exercises, whatever works. There are very positive systemic benefits to doing the compound exercises with heavy weights. You'll see it in your abs. Like I noted, I am. I haven't done any abs work for weeks, have doubled my calorie intake, and my abs are showing better now. The release of hormones stimulated by making the whole body deal with heavy loads is a pretty powerful.

My first advice for someone who wants his abs to show up would be, fix your diet. Second would be, do some kind of exercise, any kind. Third would be, do at least some fully body exercises like squats, benches, deadlifts, or cleans and jerks to get your hormones helping you burn that fat, and to help work your core.

Cardio would be fine, but I'd go for general physical preparedness (GPP) plus some hard strength work before emphasizing it to a great extent.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, you lost me at "the best workout for a thick bicep is squats and deadlifts". Squats don't even have anything to do with your biceps.

Your last sentance is 100% wrong. Squats have EVERYTHING to do with how big your arms are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm....I'm really, really missing this here. Now, FWIW, I've only been lifting for, what, 5 years now. But the way I've always done squats was to have the bar resting across my shoulders behind my head, and then to bend at the knees until I reach slightly below parallel, then to raise back up. With the Smith machine, its not even necessary (technically) to hold on to the bar with your arms.

Please, if I'm wrong, correct me, by all means.

Just for fun: Linky (http://www.intense-workout.com/leg_exercises.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that you are proving links on how to do a squat, instead of thinking about why you may be wrong, shows that no matter what i say its not going to change your mind.

i am right though, and am quite certain of it.

i suggest you reasecrh the subject, starting with the writings of Arthur Jones (created nautilus machines) and Dr. Ken Leistner.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are so clearly certain of it, please inform me in such a way that a fool like myself could understand it. I certainly would not understand their writings...not to mention, if they're good, they've written many many articles on many many forms of exercise.

Quad exercise != arm growth. As I said, please tell me how I am incorrect, oh great physical trainer.

[Voltron87]

read my other post, part of it is you support the weight of the bar with your arms. not all that weight is on your shoulders, that would hurt.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
read my other post, part of it is you support the weight of the bar with your arms. not all that weight is on your shoulders, that would hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read your other post. In mine though, I mentioned that with the squat "machines" that they have now, the machine will guide the bar up and down, and the part I didn't mention was that you can put a pad on the bar to make it not hurt so bad.

I'm failing to see how this exercise has "EVERYTHING" to do with how big your arms are, and would like the Mr. Olympia himself, Sublime, to answer my simple question, instead of acting like he knows everything.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
read my other post, part of it is you support the weight of the bar with your arms. not all that weight is on your shoulders, that would hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read your other post. In mine though, I mentioned that with the squat "machines" that they have now, the machine will guide the bar up and down, and the part I didn't mention was that you can put a pad on the bar to make it not hurt so bad.

I'm failing to see how this exercise has "EVERYTHING" to do with how big your arms are, and would like the Mr. Olympia himself, Sublime, to answer my simple question, instead of acting like he knows everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a real squat.

You can't argue about squats with someone and then switch to imitation-squats midstream. You're changing the point of the discussion.

Regular squats require a lot of stabilization from the core muscles, from the obliques to the smaller muscles attaching to the ribs to the abs to the lower back. A LOT.

Same with the deadlift. Hauling up hundreds of pounds can definitely get me sore along the ribcage.

And more than that, the fact that they put such heavy weights on so many muscles of the body at once causes lots of growth hormone release. That can affect both how much your abs show and how much your arms grow.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
read my other post, part of it is you support the weight of the bar with your arms. not all that weight is on your shoulders, that would hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read your other post. In mine though, I mentioned that with the squat "machines" that they have now, the machine will guide the bar up and down, and the part I didn't mention was that you can put a pad on the bar to make it not hurt so bad.

I'm failing to see how this exercise has "EVERYTHING" to do with how big your arms are, and would like the Mr. Olympia himself, Sublime, to answer my simple question, instead of acting like he knows everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a real squat.

You can't argue about squats with someone and then switch to imitation-squats midstream. You're changing the point of the discussion.

Regular squats require a lot of stabilization from the core muscles, from the obliques to the smaller muscles attaching to the ribs to the abs to the lower back. A LOT.

Same with the deadlift. Hauling up hundreds of pounds can definitely get me sore along the ribcage.

And more than that, the fact that they put such heavy weights on so many muscles of the body at once causes lots of growth hormone release. That can affect both how much your abs show and how much your arms grow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, and if I didn't admit the stabilization aspect, then shame on me. But EVERYTHING, as Mr. Olympia said? That's ridiculous. If all I do is squats, I'll get huge legs and have chicken arms, and anybody with half a brain knows that.

I mentioned the machine only in reference to the fact that the focus of the squat, in any form, is on the quads.

[sublime]

I'm failing to see how this exercise has "EVERYTHING" to do with how big your arms are, and would like the Mr. Olympia himself, Sublime, to answer my simple question, instead of acting like he knows everything.

I an acting like i know everything? i gave you two people to research (one who developed an enormous training product) and the other who trains NFL athletes (and is a Dr.), and instead of actually researching the subject yourself, you want me to type out some long response, only so you can make some uneducated statement to disagree with what I have to say? no thanks.

I will say this: Develping your leg and back muscles have a lot more to do with how big your arms will get than doing curls will. You can figure out why on your own. Or you can stay ignorant on the subject and assume you are right. Makes no difference to me.

[sublime]

That's ridiculous. If all I do is squats, I'll get huge legs and have chicken arms, and anybody with half a brain knows that.

No. If you can get to squating 300lbs for 20 reps, i can GUARANTEE you your arms will be 'quite' big. This is without doing one singular 'arm' exercise.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm failing to see how this exercise has "EVERYTHING" to do with how big your arms are, and would like the Mr. Olympia himself, Sublime, to answer my simple question, instead of acting like he knows everything.

I an acting like i know everything? i gave you two people to research (one who developed an enormous training product) and the other who trains NFL athletes (and is a Dr.), and instead of actually researching the subject yourself, you want me to type out some long response, only so you can make some uneducated statement to disagree with what I have to say? no thanks.

I will say this: Develping your leg and back muscles have a lot more to do with how big your arms will get than doing curls will. You can figure out why on your own. Or you can stay ignorant on the subject and assume you are right. Makes no difference to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if this is your half-assed attempt to show me that you don't totally understand the concept you earlier stated that you were 100% correct about, that's fine. I'll do the research in the morning when I get up, I'm not going to do it at 2 AM.

I asked you to show a simple response for that fact, as well as the fact that I admitted, hey, if I'm as wrong as you want to say I am, that's cool too.

You claimed squats have "EVERYTHING" to do with how big one's arms will get. I concur with the fact that core exercises will affect the body overall. However, you simply cannot claim that a leg-specific exercise has "EVERYTHING" to do with how big one's arms can be, claim that you are 100% correct and I am 100% wrong, and then put the onus on me to prove you wrong. Doing curls are part of an arm workout that will blast your bicep muscle and make it bigger and stronger. Same concept for tricep extensions, etc. If you wanna be a dick about it and call me uneducated while not taking the 30 seconds I'm sure it would take a physical specimen such as yourself to explain your simple concept to a plebian like me...fine.

[sublime]

edge: I dug up one of Dr Kens articles that sums up everything I have been saying, here is the link to it:

Dr Ken (http://www.davedraper.com/forum/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/22595/an/0/page/0#22595)

and this is the main paragraph that illustrates why the squat has EVERYTHING to do with the size of your arms:

[ QUOTE ]
The human body's muscular structures are such that I was amazed at the first autopsy I witnessed. After reading GRAY'S ANATOMY and seeing a number of anatomy charts, I had assumed that one could discern individual muscles. This isn't the case. They are so interbound and interwoven, it becomes obvious why so many years of medical training are necessary to figure the entire mystery out. Muscles work in conjunction with each other. Furthermore, greatest growth stimulation will come by working the largest muscles in the body. A secondary growth effect occurs when the major muscle masses are worked, and the statement that the "small muscles will take care of themselves if you work the big ones" is true because of this effect. Thus the greatest possible growth will occur if movements are employed that will engage the major muscular structures of the body. (More on the selection of exact exercises, later).



[/ QUOTE ]

I would read the whole article, as it will revolutionize the way you train.

[sublime]

Well, if this is your half-assed attempt to show me that you don't totally understand the concept you earlier stated that you were 100% correct about, that's fine. I'll do the research in the morning when I get up, I'm not going to do it at 2 AM.

Actually its my half assed attempt at pointing you ina better direction to train. You can assume its me being a wiseass, but your wrong. I am not going to type out my views on somebodys writings, when you can read them yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
I asked you to show a simple response for that fact, as well as the fact that I admitted, hey, if I'm as wrong as you want to say I am, that's cool too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not a simple answer. I am asking you to believe that squats are more important to your arms than curls. From your tone, this suggestion seems absurd. yet you expect ME to convince you otherwise? No. You can convince yourself.

You claimed squats have "EVERYTHING" to do with how big one's arms will get. I concur with the fact that core exercises will affect the body overall. However, you simply cannot claim that a leg-specific exercise has "EVERYTHING" to do with how big one's arms can be, claim that you are 100% correct and I am 100% wrong, and then put the onus on me to prove you wrong. Doing curls are part of an arm workout that will blast your bicep muscle and make it bigger and stronger. Same concept for tricep extensions, etc. If you wanna be a dick about it and call me uneducated while not taking the 30 seconds I'm sure it would take a physical specimen such as yourself to explain your simple concept to a plebian like me...fine.

Ok fine. Here goes. lets take two guys, same height and weight, same muscular makeup. One of them is going to do nothing but curls for a year. The other will do nothing But squats. they will add weight as often as they can and work as hard as they can.

The guy who squats will have MUCH more growth in his arms. As well as his chest, shoulders, legs, forearms etc.....

The hormonesd released from your body when you do an intesne exercise like the squat, FORCES the rest of your body to adapt (grow). The curl doesnt do this. Its a nice way to 'top off' a workout, but in reality its really not needed.

Do you know why the body grows when you workout? Its a defense mechanism. When you lift weights you are putting your body under stress, in result of this stress the body repairs itself and trys to protect itself against future bouts of this stress (muscle growth). The squat is a killer exercise and signals your CNS (central nervous system) that something isnt right, and it better do something to protect itself. That protection is muscular growth. Doing a pansie exercise like the curl has a fraction of this affect and as a result has much less effect on muscular growth.

See why I told ya to research? Cuz I ramble and make no sense. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love the ab roller.

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to double-check before I go buy one .. you're talking about one of these (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3312598&amp;cat=49038&amp;type=21&amp;d ept=4125&amp;path=0%3A4125%3A4134%3A49038) , rather than one of those little wheels, right? Is there much of a difference between different brands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's the one, but you don't have use it everyday and you should it in combination with other ab machines. Best to go the gym where they have a good variety of equipment to get an overall workout of the ab muscles.

Lawrence

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
squat, deadlif, bench press and eat a clean diet.


your abs take up less than 5% of your overall skeletal muscle. "working them" is like staying up late at night wondering how you will play your royal flushes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's the sublimeisright gimmick when I need it. Unfortunately, people seem more interested in having a body that is useful only for a career in male modeling (ie. worrying about their 6-pack) rather than one that is actually functional.

[STLantny]

Ill clarify the statements I made earlier about squats, but first let me say, Alobar you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I dont do cardio, at least I do it very rarely anymore. I eat clean and I lift very heavy weights (squat 455, dead over 500, bench 275), and even though Im fairly fat now, 25lbs heavier than I should be to have my 6 pack back, it will take me about 2 months to drop that weight, because i know how to train, and eat correctly. But, back to the squats, working the largest muscles in your body, ie your core/legs, forces the rest of your body to catch up. The body adapts very quickly, so you if you can squat 300+ weight for many reps, there is no way you will have small arms, becuase your body just adapts to being able to handle that much weight (even though you may not be using your arms for that exercise). Im not saying that isolation exercises are totatally unneccasary, but a begginer trainee is much better off not wasting time in the gym on them. Personally, I have 3 days in the gym, one for squat, one for deadlift, one for bench, each day I do that main exercise, and then a series of lifts that help all the little muscles that are used. Ive been lifting for 5-6 years, but it was only abotu 2.5 years ago that I learned how to do things right, and once I did, I couldnt stop growing.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, lifting weight burns more fat than any other exercise, because you build more muscle, and muscle in turn burns more fat throughout the day ( i think alobar was the one that said sarcastacilly that weight lifting does burn fat).

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* so many people are sooo misinformed. yes its true the more muscle you have the more calories you burn in a day. When you actually learn how many calories more 1 pound of muscle burns in a day, and how long it actually takes to create a pound of muslce, you will realize this whole "more muscle = more weight loss" thing is just total propaganda.

You wanna lose weight, go do cardio. You should be lifting weights for a ton of reasons, weight loss just isnt one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your claim is that a 45-min session of jogging on the treadmill burns more calories than a 45-min session of lifting heavy weights? Your muscles have to worker harder jogging than squatting with 400 lb on your back? Or deadlifting?

[STLantny]

Jake, alobar has no clue in hell what he is talking about. Just another sheep that doesnt do any research to support his disinformation. It makes them feel better that they dont have to get all sweaty and icky lifting those heavy weight thingies- and that they can drink their mocha lattes on the treadmill.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
these threads are always so stupid. Its mostly people who have no idea what they are talking about, giving out lots of bad advice. If you wanna learn what to do for abs, go down to the bookstore and look at some exersise books, there are lots of them specifically for your abs. Youll learn alot more there than you will from this thread

[/ QUOTE ]

The bad advice is coming from the very source you're pushing people to. Popular fitness books from your local Barnes &amp; noble. Pop fitness is as much a load of crap as pop diets. Half the ab books are from the same authors/editors that put out the fad diet books.

With that said, if all the op wants is a six pack and doesn't care about actually being fit, maybe those books are what he needs. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Ill clarify the statements I made earlier about squats, but first let me say, Alobar you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I dont do cardio, at least I do it very rarely anymore. I eat clean and I lift very heavy weights (squat 455, dead over 500, bench 275), and even though Im fairly fat now, 25lbs heavier than I should be to have my 6 pack back, it will take me about 2 months to drop that weight, because i know how to train, and eat correctly. But, back to the squats, working the largest muscles in your body, ie your core/legs, forces the rest of your body to catch up. The body adapts very quickly, so you if you can squat 300+ weight for many reps, there is no way you will have small arms, becuase your body just adapts to being able to handle that much weight (even though you may not be using your arms for that exercise). Im not saying that isolation exercises are totatally unneccasary, but a begginer trainee is much better off not wasting time in the gym on them. Personally, I have 3 days in the gym, one for squat, one for deadlift, one for bench, each day I do that main exercise, and then a series of lifts that help all the little muscles that are used. Ive been lifting for 5-6 years, but it was only abotu 2.5 years ago that I learned how to do things right, and once I did, I couldnt stop growing.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% correct

One thing:

[ QUOTE ]
Im not saying that isolation exercises are totatally unneccasar

[/ QUOTE ]

I am /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[STLantny]

I do, do some isolation movements, curls, tricep rope pulldowns and things, you dont have to do them, but it does help a little bit, when you are at a sticking point with your training, but any newb wont have to worry about sticking points for at least 2 years of consistent training.
Plus I admit, I like the pump in my arms, after Im done.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus I admit, I like the pump in my arms, after Im done.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's the truth. unnecesary but... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I do, do some isolation movements, curls, tricep rope pulldowns and things, you dont have to do them, but it does help a little bit, when you are at a sticking point with your training, but any newb wont have to worry about sticking points for at least 2 years of consistent training.
Plus I admit, I like the pump in my arms, after Im done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I suppose totally unneccasary was a bit much. Maybe this is better:

By the time you actually NEED to do an isolation exercise, you won be asking if you shoud?

[STLantny]

Ya, thats probably the best way to put it.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Jake, alobar has no clue in hell what he is talking about. Just another sheep that doesnt do any research to support his disinformation. It makes them feel better that they dont have to get all sweaty and icky lifting those heavy weight thingies- and that they can drink their mocha lattes on the treadmill.

[/ QUOTE ]

work on your reading comprehension. I never said not to lift weights, I said that people whos goal is weight loss and spend their time lifting weights because they heard that the more muscle you have the more calories you burn, are retards, because while it is a true statement it is so benign in terms of their goal, its laughably funny. They should be doing cardo. Obviously you fit in that catagory.

and for the record, I sweat way more and work much harder during my cardio workouts than you ever will in your gym. Oh, and then when Im done, I go lift those heavy weight thingies.

[sublime]

and for the record, I sweat way more and work much harder during my cardio workouts than you ever will in your gym

Have you ever done a set of 20 deep squats?

Its usuually followed by the literal inabilty to walk, and/or vomiting.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
and for the record, I sweat way more and work much harder during my cardio workouts than you ever will in your gym

Have you ever done a set of 20 deep squats?

Its usuually followed by the literal inabilty to walk, and/or vomiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was why the next sentence in his post was funny.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
and for the record, I sweat way more and work much harder during my cardio workouts than you ever will in your gym

Have you ever done a set of 20 deep squats?

Its usuually followed by the literal inabilty to walk, and/or vomiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

Have you ever ridden a century? (100 miles on a bicycle)

[STLantny]

If you are working that hard before a weight training session, that is probably why you see no benefits from it. Doing 45 minutes of cardio, and depleting your muscles of glycogen before a workout, is probably why you have shown no results. You havent backed up any statements with research, like sublime has. Only to say that the [censored] mags you read say its true, while even mens health doesnt say its true. Im not saying cardio is bad, its not, but its neither the best nor the quickest way to having a great physique.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and for the record, I sweat way more and work much harder during my cardio workouts than you ever will in your gym

Have you ever done a set of 20 deep squats?

Its usuually followed by the literal inabilty to walk, and/or vomiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

Have you ever ridden a century? (100 miles on a bicycle)

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, so you do a Century once a week? Since we are talking about the effectivness of normal workouts, NOT for a particular sport, I dont see what relevence this has to do with the subject.

Lifting weigths is &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;than cardio exercise in terms of OVERALL health. And I mean, having a respectable BF% when I say this.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever ridden a century? (100 miles on a bicycle)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Have you ever beat up 75 five year olds?

[sublime]

Another point:

People get hung up on losing 'weight' and thats where the obsession with cardio exercise comes in. Heres the problem with cardio. Sure you will lose 'weight' quicker by riding a bike 45 minutes as opposed to doing some INTENSE squate, but a decent % of that weight is muscle, which is counter productive. By Squatting (deadlifting etc) you are inducuing muscle GROWTH instead of regression, while also losing fat.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are working that hard before a weight training session, that is probably why you see no benefits from it. Doing 45 minutes of cardio, and depleting your muscles of glycogen before a workout, is probably why you have shown no results. You havent backed up any statements with research, like sublime has. Only to say that the [censored] mags you read say its true, while even mens health doesnt say its true. Im not saying cardio is bad, its not, but its neither the best nor the quickest way to having a great physique.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, way to prove my point about reading comprehension. I never said I wasnt seeing results, and I never quoted a magazine as a source (or even mentioned a magazine). As for research, you havent supplied any either. But if you really wanna prove me wrong, go research how many calories a pound of muscle burns in a day, and how many pounds of muscle a year the average adult male can put on, then go find out how many calories are in a pound of fat. I'm betting once you do that tho, you'll realize my point.

Anyway, I'm done with this whole convo, because i've degraded to pointless dickwaving and arguing with posters I generally like.

Alobar out

[STLantny]

someone earlier posted the research, so I didnt have too. average adult male with the correct training, who has never trained before, can put on abotu 30lbs of muscle in two years. Thats a hefty chunck of weight. 1 lb of muscle burns 40 calories a day, so basically, after 2 years you are burnin and extra 1200 calories PER DAY. One lb of fat is 3500 calories. Wow. I love proving my point with math, thank you Mr. Sklansky.


go down to the bookstore and look at some exersise books, there are lots of them specifically for your abs.

Most everything, if not all the crap you find and barnes and noble is written by the same morons who write the mags.

And I can just assume that you arent seeing progress as far as your physique goes, due to your comments. So its less a matter of reading comprehension, and more me making assumptions based on your drivel.

[Diplomat]

On a related side note, if you are having back pain, it could very well be tight hamstrings and hip flexors. I have had varrying degrees of back pain over the last five years thanks to a somewhat bad gym injury and sitting at my desk all day, and tried just about everything to get rid of the back pain. A month ago I started getting back into the gym again, with the help of a trainer (and the motivation of getting married at the beginning of September), and we found that my hamstrings and hips were about as flexible as glass. I've been stretching my hamstrings and hips every day, and it's made a huge difference.

Basically, its the idea that tight hamstrings and hips will pull your pelvis out of normal alignment. Stretch them out and less pressure will be put on your back.

On a side-side note, stretching will help increase strength through increased range of motion.

GL!

-Diplomat

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I'm done with this whole convo, because i've degraded to pointless dickwaving and arguing with posters I generally like.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah....didn't see that one coming. I mean that really escalated. That really got out of hand.

For sublime, I read the articles and you pointed me toward more information, just as I had hoped you would when we got beyond "I'm right and you're wrong" 3rd grade stuff. I was in a bad mood most of last night, so that probably came across too. So I guess here's the compromise we've got...

*Squats and other core exercises WILL indeed have a great impact on overall musculature and will, in fact, help build other muscle, ie. arms from squats.

*STLantny doesn't want to see it, but cardio is, in fact, recommended as a body-fat and calorie burning addition to any routine. Yes, lifting helps burn calories. However, if its done at a high-weight, low-speed pace, what will happen is muscle will build under fat.

So basically if you're looking for overall health, sure, go with the core lifts and the clean diet. But since we totally hijacked this shite, let's get back to the OP...ab exercises and cardio, in addition to the lifting and diet. There's your 6-pack right there.

Gotta go drink my first quart of water... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I'm done with this whole convo, because i've degraded to pointless dickwaving and arguing with posters I generally like.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah....didn't see that one coming. I mean that really escalated. That really got out of hand.

For sublime, I read the articles and you pointed me toward more information, just as I had hoped you would when we got beyond "I'm right and you're wrong" 3rd grade stuff. I was in a bad mood most of last night, so that probably came across too. So I guess here's the compromise we've got...

*Squats and other core exercises WILL indeed have a great impact on overall musculature and will, in fact, help build other muscle, ie. arms from squats.

*STLantny doesn't want to see it, but cardio is, in fact, recommended as a body-fat and calorie burning addition to any routine. Yes, lifting helps burn calories. However, if its done at a high-weight, low-speed pace, what will happen is muscle will build under fat.

So basically if you're looking for overall health, sure, go with the core lifts and the clean diet. But since we totally hijacked this shite, let's get back to the OP...ab exercises and cardio, in addition to the lifting and diet. There's your 6-pack right there.

Gotta go drink my first quart of water... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


ARG!. For a new lifter, doing what I reccomend, lifting, while at a calorie defecit, is the fastest way to go. Muscle WILL NOT build under the fat, if you are at a calorie defecit. You will build muscle and lose fat. This is ONLY for a beginner though, as they are really the only ones to be able to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, while in a caloric defecit. Well, actually roid users can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time too.

[sublime]

Anyway, I'm done with this whole convo, because i've degraded to pointless dickwaving and arguing with posters I generally like.

i more than GENERALLY like you /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sublime]

*Squats and other core exercises WILL indeed have a great impact on overall musculature and will, in fact, help build other muscle, ie. arms from squats.

cool. the more you read on about the anotomy of the body and how muscles respond to intense stress, the more you will realized exercises like the bicep curl and tricep extension are a waste of time. the general theme will ALWAYS be:

Adding more weight to the bar (or more reps, progressive load is the key) and moving as much weight as possible over the greatest ROM possible. squats and deadlifts are the two most effective ways of doing this, with the overhead press and bench pree a distant 3rd.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
i more than GENERALLY like you /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

is there something we don't know about the two of you?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i more than GENERALLY like you /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

is there something we don't know about the two of you?

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, naw but i genrally like everyone. alobar has been around a while is all.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
*Squats and other core exercises WILL indeed have a great impact on overall musculature and will, in fact, help build other muscle, ie. arms from squats.

cool. the more you read on about the anotomy of the body and how muscles respond to intense stress, the more you will realized exercises like the bicep curl and tricep extension are a waste of time. the general theme will ALWAYS be:

Adding more weight to the bar (or more reps, progressive load is the key) and moving as much weight as possible over the greatest ROM possible. squats and deadlifts are the two most effective ways of doing this, with the overhead press and bench pree a distant 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to be taking a sports kinesiology class this semester, so I assume whatever we've discussed here will be talked about much more in there. However, I still don't see how the biceps curls and triceps extensions are total bunk. I think we're most likely looking at different purposes for the lifting. You can build mass through core exercises with little side work, I will grant you that, but I don't see how so many people can still advocate these isolation exercises if scientific research says they're a waste. I guess to get big, you could do the core, but for that extra cut, you're going to need to isolate? This one I admit I'm not sure on, I'm just trying to make sense of it all...

[sublime]

I will grant you that, but I don't see how so many people can still advocate these isolation exercises if scientific research says they're a waste. I guess to get big, you could do the core, but for that extra cut, you're going to need to isolate? This one I admit I'm not sure on, I'm just trying to make sense of it all...

Maybe a 'waste' is to strong, just really not needed. 99% focus needs to be give to Squats/deads/bench/chins etc. The problem is most trainees dont do that. They assume that the the secondary exercise are as important as the core ones, when in actuallity its not even close (like comparing AA vs 89o)

If your doing sqauts etc, balls to the wall to FAIL (cant go anymore) you dont have the need (nor should you have the desire) to go rack up a bar and do curls and tricep extensions. You should want to sit down and catch your breathe and go home.

If you focus on getting to squatting 500lbs, Deadlifting 400, and benching 300 your arms will most definitly be as big as nature will allow them to be, they cant help it.

As for why its assumed by the workout community that curls/tricep extensions are needed, most of it is fueled by the people who recommned this sort of stuff being genetic freaks of nature AND drug induced. they are trying to sell books and products, and telling people that 3 exercises will make you enormous if you do them till you feel like you cant anymore, kinda kills thier industry.

whats sexier? a workout of squats/deads/bench press for two sets to fail, 45 minutes in the gym once or twice a week, or some complex 10 exercise system with a ctacy name like "pyramid technique training" designed to make you look like arnold?

i recommend you read stuart mcroberts book, Beyond Brawn. you can get it here: Hardgainer (http://www.hardgainer.com) Its geared towards drug free training, and is probably the best health book written in our lifetimes.

[ChicagoTroy]

Fork curls. You have to do fewer of them.

If the plan is just visible abs, any exercise that increases resting tension will make them stand out more. None of them will reduce fat around your waist. That's called spot reducing and it's a myth that every sports scientist knows is B.S.

Reduce calories or exercise more.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are working that hard before a weight training session, that is probably why you see no benefits from it. Doing 45 minutes of cardio, and depleting your muscles of glycogen before a workout, is probably why you have shown no results. You havent backed up any statements with research, like sublime has. Only to say that the [censored] mags you read say its true, while even mens health doesnt say its true. Im not saying cardio is bad, its not, but its neither the best nor the quickest way to having a great physique.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, way to prove my point about reading comprehension. I never said I wasnt seeing results, and I never quoted a magazine as a source (or even mentioned a magazine). As for research, you havent supplied any either. But if you really wanna prove me wrong, go research how many calories a pound of muscle burns in a day, and how many pounds of muscle a year the average adult male can put on, then go find out how many calories are in a pound of fat. I'm betting once you do that tho, you'll realize my point.

Anyway, I'm done with this whole convo, because i've degraded to pointless dickwaving and arguing with posters I generally like.

Alobar out

[/ QUOTE ]

Cardio has plenty of benefit, but it still releases next to no growth hormones. Growth hormones help burn fat all by themselves.

Whether or not you add any muscle.

The truth is, cardio can make you extremely skinny, though what's left will be great muscle, though not necessarily very strong muscle. But super lean. However, unless you're genetically very gifted, it won't put on much muscle, and will actually inhibit the growth of muscle mass by turning muscle fibers from fast-twitch to slow-twitch, which has less potential for growth in size. Aside from which, it will tend to eat up muscle there is faster than it can be replaced.

That change of muscle, lack of muscle gain, and loss of existing muscle CANNOT help in the quest to lose weight. If you want to show your abs, you are extremely well served first by not losing the muscle you have, and then by gaining new muscle.

The new muscle itself will not give you a six-pack by itself, but then again, for most of us by far, neither will anything else but diet, not exercise.

But the PROCESS of getting the new muscle will release growth hormone that helps burn off fat. That's something aerobics will not do, because only subjecting the body to severe resistance triggers significant growth hormone release. Run 20 miles and you'll probably be real skinny. Squat 20 heavy squats and you won't be skinny. Your body won't allow it.

So lifting heavy helps get you to the six-pack stage, and once you're there, the extra muscle helps keep you there.

You'll still need proper diet to get the six-pack no matter which path you take. Cardio is still excellent exercise. But if you want to get to the six-pack stage, you'll be much better served by making heavy lifting part of your routine than by relying on cardio alone.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*Squats and other core exercises WILL indeed have a great impact on overall musculature and will, in fact, help build other muscle, ie. arms from squats.

cool. the more you read on about the anotomy of the body and how muscles respond to intense stress, the more you will realized exercises like the bicep curl and tricep extension are a waste of time. the general theme will ALWAYS be:

Adding more weight to the bar (or more reps, progressive load is the key) and moving as much weight as possible over the greatest ROM possible. squats and deadlifts are the two most effective ways of doing this, with the overhead press and bench pree a distant 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to be taking a sports kinesiology class this semester, so I assume whatever we've discussed here will be talked about much more in there. However, I still don't see how the biceps curls and triceps extensions are total bunk. I think we're most likely looking at different purposes for the lifting. You can build mass through core exercises with little side work, I will grant you that, but I don't see how so many people can still advocate these isolation exercises if scientific research says they're a waste. I guess to get big, you could do the core, but for that extra cut, you're going to need to isolate? This one I admit I'm not sure on, I'm just trying to make sense of it all...

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, the fitness industry, and an industry it is, has been strongly influenced by bodybuilding, which was brought into prominence by Joe Weider and his magazines and the bodybuilders in his stable, like Schwarzenegger.

Who better to believe on bodybuilding than world class bodybuilders? And what they say is isolate, isolate, isolate, and do many many repetitions per set, many many sets.

The thing is, those dudes are on steroids! Yes, almost all of them. Always have been. And the dudes of today take even more of them, on more prolonged cycles.

For them, you can do eight different exercises for the biceps alone, and spend three hours per work-out in the gym, and then do that kind of thing later in the day all over again, six days a week. Steroids give them vastly improved recovery that you or I(assuming we are steroid free) simply don't come anywhere near, as well as the ability to grow that we simply don't have.

America has generations of people raised on bodybuilding routines that serve mostly to injure or overtrain anyone not on roids. Drug-free lifters do much better if they rest more and train less. They don't need 8 bicep exercises, and not only don't they benefit from them, they break down more muscle than they're usually able to replace unless they're big winners in the genetic lottery. And even then, they would simply get more bang for the buck by getting in and out of the gym in an hour or less, just a few times a week.

There was a good article a couple of weeks ago about this over at www.t-nation.com. (http://www.t-nation.com.) It definitely described me as a kid -- faithfully reading Joe Wieder's muscle mags, lifting like crazy, eating almost insane amounts per day, and staying unbelievably skinny and weak as my reward. Which I inevitably tried to fix by doing even MORE work -- MORE isolation to "blast" my biceps and smaller muscles, just like Arnold and Colombu and Sergio and Ferrigno. It was a ridiculous, self-defeating process.

But hell, it sold magazines. And it's still selling them decades later.

What a truly monumental waste of time and effort those magazines and their routines produced. Not to mention an emotional investment in results that never came. I wish I had known then that more volume is not better, and just to concentrate on a few big lifts, lift them very heavy, and keep isolation exercises to a minimum.