The Freemoney Principle

[ilya]

I.E.

Play against your opponents actually play, not against how you would play in their shoes.


Ok obviously freemoney is like the 50 millionth person to say this, but he explicitly champions this important point more than many of the other top posters. For example there was that thread a few weeks back in which you were on the bubble with 10xbb in the SB contemplating pushing into a 10xbb BB. There was a super short stack. Everyone was saying, push any 2, the BB needs AA-QQ to call! But freemoney was like...'no dudes. just because he should be tight doesn't mean he will be.'

So....

***** Hand History for Game 2483357903 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14572420 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Friday, August 05, 18:14:16 EDT 2005
Table Table 14000 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: stubby67 ( $120 )
Seat 6: bootman51 ( $2500 )
Seat 8: StneColdCall ( $4500 )
Seat 9: PaulTD ( $880 )
Trny:14572420 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
There is no Small Blind in this hand as the Big Blind of the previous hand left the table.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to StneColdCall [ Ac 5s ]
PaulTD folds.
stubby67 folds.
bootman51 raises [600].


Resist the urge....or at least resist thinking that the right play is OBVIOUS here.

[xLukex]

I would say push if you know he is a total donk, but I also like calling and reevaluating after the flop.

I could care less about the small stacks in this hand as you'll still be in fine shape if you lose the hand.

I don't know, I should just let curtains and citanul and durron toss this around huh. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ewing55]

The question is: Is Bootman trapping???

Normally I'd push over the top of him and say "You wanna chance 4th?" but if he is thinking that's what I'd do, then I fold. How did he become 2nd big stack? Lucky or skill? Is he pushing/mini-raising a lot and folding to a bet or what.

Of course I could be wrong.

I don't see how you can guess what he is thinking by the small amount of information given.

----------Jeff

[durron597]

Wtf. I say this too.

I'm pushing 32o here and it's not close.

Edit: whoops this isn't obvious, I misread who is in the BB. Hm need to think about it actualy.

[freemoney]

theres no comparison between me and someone like durron or citanul no offense.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say push if you know he is a total donk, but I also like calling and reevaluating after the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this backwards? If he's a donk he'll call a push, and even if you are ahead, the ChipEV you might gain isn't worth the TEV you might lose, right?

If he's a thinking player, and your table image is good, no way he calls a push on the bubble without a big pair or AK/AQ.

And I don't like burning 600 chips on a call that leaves me out of position with a weak hand. I'd fold if didn't want to push.

[freemoney]

this hand is an easy push IMO though.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
theres no comparison between me and someone like durron or citanul no offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

you rate yourself much higher than citanul?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
this hand is an easy push IMO though.

[/ QUOTE ]

why, because you are still in very good shape if you get called & lose?

[Slim Pickens]

Eh, are you saying that it takes a top-flight player to fold to an all-in here? Even at the 33's I think most players in bootman's boots will fold this. The reason they're not as good is that the better players think a little ahead and know if they have to fold 1/5 of their stack to a reraise, it's probably a bad idea. The average (therefore losing) player has to be reminded of that fact after putting in his chips, rather than knowing it before. I guess what I'm saying is that I do think the right play from your seat is obvious here, so maybe I don't quite get it yet.

SlimP

[freemoney]

im sorry but i do well at step 5s and have well over 1000 SnGs at the 100s with over 25%+ ROI, i dont think many people if any can say that, and i think im good enough to know how im running.

[freemoney]

yeah, i personally call pre and push almost any flop unless i hit a monster but im not folding here.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say push if you know he is a total donk, but I also like calling and reevaluating after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate calling. WTF flop do you want to see with A5?

EDIT: ...but I play lower levels and am less skilled post-flop than the good players.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, i personally call pre and push almost any flop unless i hit a monster but im not folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought about it more now that I realize that Hero is the BB and not the 900 stack, Yea, I like the stop and go better.

[The Don]

This is a push if villian has any assemblence of knowing what he is doing. As long as I thought I had 3+ outs if he called I would move in here.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
im sorry but i do well at step 5s and have well over 1000 SnGs at the 100s with over 25%+ ROI, i dont think many people if any can say that, and i think im good enough to know how im running.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't my intention to sound incredulous or imply that you overestimate yourself. I was simply curious.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
theres no comparison between me and someone like durron or citanul no offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

For once, I agree with you, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

citanul would pwn you worse than a $2 hooker at Norwalk Penitentiary.

Durron's pwning may only be on par with a $100 crack-whore from Compton.

Yugoslav

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
theres no comparison between me and someone like durron or citanul no offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

For once, I agree with you, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

citanul would pwn you worse than a $2 hooker at Norwalk Penitentiary.

Durron's pwning may only be on par with a $100 crack-whore from Compton.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugo, that is SO insensitive. Have you ever actually MET a crack whore?

[fluorescenthippo]

i would usually push here. but if the villian knows you have been very aggressive lately he might be trying to "trap" you with A7o or something.

a good read on villian would make this push easier

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Durron's pwning may only be on par with a $100 crack-whore from Compton.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know whether to be offended or pleased. Probably both /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[suited_ace]

At a $20+2 I'd go for a stop 'n go, it is as effective with a big stack as it is when you have a short one. Maybe more.

I'm not seeing why this is a good stop 'n go spot. We're assuming that he doesn't have a monster and so, most likely, he would fold a lot of hands to a reraise. By just calling it gives villian a chance to hit the flop and now call the hero. How many hands would villian call an allin with, but fold to a stop 'n go? I could be misreading the hand ranges (hard to know with so little info) but it seems like calling lets in more hands than it shuts out.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Play against your opponents actually play, not against how you would play in their shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make doesn't this sense.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Play against your opponents actually play, not against how you would play in their shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this, and like you said a million people have said this before, some have said it repeatedly for a long time. On this forum, I would primarily think of Lorinda.

edit: Ok, I agree after Daliman edits it.

[microbet]

We (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=285 6279&Forum=&Words=%2B1000%20%2BROI&Searchpage=0&Li mit=25&Main=2854332&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name =19302&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval =&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2856279) heard (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=306 6000&Forum=&Words=%2B1000%20%2BROI&Searchpage=0&Li mit=25&Main=3065855&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name =19302&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval =&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3066000) you (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=304 9447&Forum=&Words=%2B1000&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=3049237&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=19302&da terange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&olderty pe=&bodyprev=#Post3049447)
before. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=301 9137&Forum=&Words=ROI&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=3 019137&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=19302&datera nge=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post3019137) We (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=272 9429&Forum=&Words=ROI&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2 729429&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=19302&datera nge=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post2729429) even (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=272 2286&Forum=&Words=ROI&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2 720428&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=19302&datera nge=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post2722286) remember this one. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2486735&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

[Mr_J]

Great collection there /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[freemoney]

lol yeah once every 150 posts, i gotta calm down.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Play against your opponents actually play, not against how you would play in their shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make doesn't this sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I meant to say was

Play against your opponents! Actually, play not. Against how you would play! In their shoes.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Play against your opponents actually play, not against how you would play in their shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, seriously, it should be:

Against your opponents, play you must. Play not against yourself.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Play against your opponents actually play, not against how you would play in their shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, seriously, it should be:

Against your opponents, play you must. Play not against yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/twentieth_century_fox/the_empire_strikes_back/frank_oz/epv2.jpg

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
I.E.

Play against your opponents actually play, not against how you would play in their shoes.


Ok obviously freemoney is like the 50 millionth person to say this, but he explicitly champions this important point more than many of the other top posters. For example there was that thread a few weeks back in which you were on the bubble with 10xbb in the SB contemplating pushing into a 10xbb BB. There was a super short stack. Everyone was saying, push any 2, the BB needs AA-QQ to call! But freemoney was like...'no dudes. just because he should be tight doesn't mean he will be.'

So....

***** Hand History for Game 2483357903 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14572420 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Friday, August 05, 18:14:16 EDT 2005
Table Table 14000 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: stubby67 ( $120 )
Seat 6: bootman51 ( $2500 )
Seat 8: StneColdCall ( $4500 )
Seat 9: PaulTD ( $880 )
Trny:14572420 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
There is no Small Blind in this hand as the Big Blind of the previous hand left the table.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to StneColdCall [ Ac 5s ]
PaulTD folds.
stubby67 folds.
bootman51 raises [600].


Resist the urge....or at least resist thinking that the right play is OBVIOUS here.

[/ QUOTE ]

uber insta push, IMO

only reason why not would be the min raise, hafta have some kind of a read on him to suspect this was super strong, i suspect its weak, due to his fear of your chips...take advantage of that fear

[bluefeet]

dude...i was actually reading mb's post in my yoda voice before i scrolled down to yours /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

this thread is funny



[ QUOTE ]
For example there was that thread a few weeks back in which you were on the bubble with 10xbb in the SB contemplating pushing into a 10xbb BB. There was a super short stack. Everyone was saying, push any 2, the BB needs AA-QQ to call! But freemoney was like...'no dudes. just because he should be tight doesn't mean he will be.'

[/ QUOTE ]
In that example the villain was a very good 2+2er, so it really wasn't close

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

In that example the villain was a very good 2+2er, so it really wasn't close

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see that thread, but if I'm miniraising into a very good big stack 2+2er with a shortstack UTG on the bubble, I have AA-QQ.

[curtains]

You should definitely move allin here. It doesnt even hurt you that much if he calls and beats you. Meanwhile it kills him otherwise. Of course they wont be as tight as they SHOULD be, but they often will be extremely tight. Also based on hand value alone and the size of the blinds you should move allin.

[ilya]

I pushed, Villain insta-called with AKo, I rivered a 5.

[curtains]

See, poker is easy

[freemoney]

an important idea of the bubble is that obviously poker is a game of incomplete information so the idea of correct/incorrect bubble play is only applicable in few situations such as i have X chips and 2nd stack bitch has X amount of chips- he knows im pushing any 2 he can only call with these hands, or big stack is pushig with any 2 i should only call with these hands, but even different factors change this situation because that only works in a vacuum, the idea is a large majority of situations are based on who is most aware of the factors that arent measureable and uses that information best, much more situations are better/worse than right/wrong and being able to constantly make the best decisions is not usually a quantifiable solution, too many people have a rigid inflexible outlook such as i push here everytime but incorrect assumptions are too easily and often made, treating each and every situation as a unique one and realizing that ideas such as i push everytime are by people judging their decisions on a correct/incorrect basis while it should be much more on a grey scale of better/worse where each problem has its own unique characteristics and best solutions...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I pushed, Villain insta-called with AKo, I rivered a 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why the SnG may be better. Do you think he calls with the nut no pair for all his chips given UTG's stack?

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pushed, Villain insta-called with AKo, I rivered a 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why the SnG may be better. Do you think he calls with the nut no pair for all his chips given UTG's stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it was previously assumed that there wouldn't be many hands that call a push and fold to a stop-n-go. You have to put him on a range of hands here, and I don't think it includes many hands like AK. Also if villain is bad enough to raise with it and call a push when guaranteed itm, I don't put it past him to push the flop himself with AK or call your flop push.

[tigerite]

Had a very similar hand to this, I think I pushed with AT in a situation with a very small stack and a call from me would knock out the other stack, and me losing would still leave me in fine shape, he called with AQ, and I flopped a ten. End of his tourney, and I won easily after that

[curtains]

A stop and go is really bad here and a really results oriented way of thinking. Of course if we knew he had exactly AK yes we'd call, and see if an ace or king comes. Of course we also never know this. What we do know is that our opponent will generally fold preflop with a lot of hands because two people are about to bust.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
A stop and go is really bad here and a really results oriented way of thinking. Of course if we knew he had exactly AK yes we'd call, and see if an ace or king comes. Of course we also never know this. What we do know is that our opponent will generally fold preflop with a lot of hands because two people are about to bust.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a typical opponent you are of course correct. But what about an opponent who we expect to be trapping here with a big ace or a big pair? Should we just fold?

I am pushing here against nearly all opponents. But I think Ilya's point was that *against this opponent* a stop and go may be better.

[curtains]

If you believe your opponent is trapping with a big hand then just fold, although I'm hard pressed to believe that most of the time, especially against some random donk at the $33s.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]

*against this opponent* .

[/ QUOTE ]

And what do we know about him? He's a) trapping and/or b) stupid. If he's trapping, he will not fold no matter what. If he's stupid, the assumption is that he will call with many hands that beat you i.e. 66+, A6+, which he would fold if he didn't hit the flop. However, you need to consider that he is acting before you on the flop, and may make a sizable bet that will commit him, and that you will have to surrenmder the pot if no A or 5 comes.

I don't think he would fold any pair higher than sixes to a stop-n-go, and I don't think he won't bet on most flop with most aces he would be raising here.

However, I think he is likely to realize the raise was a mistake when you come over the top and fold one of these better hands.

[curtains]

No, hes not stupid just because he min raises here. First of all he doesnt know that we are some kind of genius who is just going to go allin every time. The majority of people DONT play like that. Its hard for me to go into depth, but the majority of the time a random $33 player will have crap and will fold.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]

No, hes not stupid just because he min raises here. First of all he doesnt know that we are some kind of genius who is just going to go allin every time. The majority of people DONT play like that. Its hard for me to go into depth, but the majority of the time a random $33 player will have crap and will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then if you are right it's one more argument not to try a stop-n-go. I will raise hands in that situation too if I am sure that the BB isn't 'some kind of genius'. Don't think it takes that much of a genius to figure that out though, since I've noticed people are stealing my blinds a lot less when I have a bigger stack.

[curtains]

trust me, most people are not good. Most random players will not reraise there from the BB without a hand at the $33s.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]

trust me, most people are not good. Most random players will not reraise there from the BB without a hand at the $33s.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, knowing that most people aren't good, what should the SB raise with if he's competent? Shouldn't he fold most hands since the 120 stack will bust? Which would be the exceptions? How does the correct play from Sb changes at the 55s and 109s?

[bennies]

This is one of the best posts I've ever read. Thank you!

Keep posting!!