View Full Version : 1st hand - Flop decision with AK
Isura
08-05-2005, 06:16 PM
No reads, so not sure what to make of the flop bet. Push, fold? I don't think I can call right?
#Game No : 2482754154
***** Hand History for Game 2482754154 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:14570523 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Friday, August 05, 16:05:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 11649 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 5: chromedome3 ( $800 )
Seat 6: lsg9046 ( $800 )
Seat 7: rivergene ( $800 )
Seat 10: i_rake_u ( $800 )
Seat 3: greypower ( $800 )
Seat 8: HERO ( $800 )
Seat 9: Monstr_Huntr ( $800 )
Seat 4: larsesp ( $800 )
Seat 2: jhawkljw ( $800 )
Seat 1: twogolf ( $800 )
Trny:14570523 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kd Ah ]
>You have options at Table 11690 Table!.
lsg9046 folds.
rivergene folds.
HERO raises [50].
Monstr_Huntr folds.
i_rake_u folds.
twogolf calls [50].
>You have options at Table 12698 Table!.
jhawkljw calls [50].
greypower folds.
larsesp folds.
chromedome3 calls [35].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, Js, 4c ]
>You have options at Table 10987 Table!.
chromedome3 bets [225]
HERO ..
BDarch
08-05-2005, 06:20 PM
I'd push, most people who flopped two pair or trips would make a smaller bet to try and encourage action.
I'm all-in. He's trying to take down the pot. He clearly hasn't flopped trips.
I'm pushing here. If he has AJ, that just sucks. If he has A4, you still have six outs on the turn, then probably nine on the river, which is about 25% by my sketchy insta-math skills. I don't think a set would play it like this, and there aren't any good draws. POOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!
jgunnip
08-05-2005, 06:31 PM
I push but why such a small raise preflop?
SCfuji
08-05-2005, 06:46 PM
is call, bet the turn if checked too, or call an all in on the turn that bad?
[ QUOTE ]
is call, bet the turn if checked too, or call an all in on the turn that bad?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty certain we have the best hand right now, but that are at least some outs for him to beat you. I prefer to take this pot down now and move on to the next hand.
lastchance
08-05-2005, 06:56 PM
Decently played, I shove here. Folding would be ok at a higher buy-in, of course, or with reads, which you don't have yet.
RhitTaker
08-05-2005, 07:12 PM
I call. Only card that completes a draw is a 10. If he's bluffing, let him try it again on the turn. If he has a weaker ace, let him "protect" it again on the turn. If you're beat, you're broke in any case. Can't lay it down.
SCfuji
08-05-2005, 07:20 PM
why end the hand now, when hero has a chance to take em all when the villain just throws the rest of his stack into heros stack?
adanthar
08-05-2005, 07:39 PM
Because the chance that he folds now is greater than the chance he won't shove the rest of it on any turn with Ax.
Also, you like overcalls.
Meatmaw
08-05-2005, 07:40 PM
For those of you others who said 'push because he likely doesn't have 2pair or trips', why would you not raise and encourage him to call you at bad odds if you feel you have the best hand? Say, reraise to 400-500 then push on the turn (and risk giving him a correct call on the turn) rather than risk giving him a correct fold on the flop?
RhitTaker
08-05-2005, 07:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Because the chance that he folds now is greater than the chance he won't shove the rest of it on any turn with Ax.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's an argument AGAINST pushing, right?
adanthar
08-05-2005, 07:49 PM
Yes.
lastchance
08-05-2005, 08:24 PM
Yupz, definitely have to retract my original thought. SCfugi, Rhittaker, and Adanthar are right. Definitely good to just call here, and get your chips in on the turn.
SCfuji
08-05-2005, 08:59 PM
my thoughts come from those that shillx installed into my brain
pokerlaw
08-05-2005, 09:12 PM
pushes
pokerlaw
08-05-2005, 09:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes.
[/ QUOTE ]
true. that is prob the better way to play it. didn't read your post before my first one...(FWIW, if he slightly hesitated before his bet, then i am much more likely to flat call and push on the turn bet or bet at the turn check. if he quickly bet, then i prob push QUICKLY, cause he'll prob call)
Shillx
08-05-2005, 09:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
my thoughts come from those that shillx installed into my brain
[/ QUOTE ]
All the money is going in on this hand. It makes a lot more sense to make him do the betting since he won't throw away a better hand to a flop all-in, but he might get greedy and make a big pot commiting or all-in bet on 4th with Ax or Jx. By making a big reraise now all you do is give him a chance to get away from a worse hand. This is commonly how you should play these hands since the $$$ is going in no matter what if he has AQ or AJ, but by just calling, you get those extra chips those times he keeps bluffing at the pot (or betting with <= 3 outs).
Brad
Who the hell is Shillx anyway? I hear that he got a new Party handle /images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Isura
08-05-2005, 09:41 PM
Good discussion guys.
One point nobody mentioned yet is the presence of the 2 players behind me. I guess that doesn't change the situation much in this case, but what about when the flop is 2-suited? I'll post the results later tonight.
lastchance
08-05-2005, 09:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Good discussion guys.
One point nobody mentioned yet is the presence of the 2 players behind me. I guess that doesn't change the situation much in this case, but what about when the flop is 2-suited? I'll post the results later tonight.
[/ QUOTE ]
If the flop is 2 suited, I think calling becomes a lot worse especially with opponents behind you.
RhitTaker
08-05-2005, 10:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Good discussion guys.
One point nobody mentioned yet is the presence of the 2 players behind me. I guess that doesn't change the situation much in this case, but what about when the flop is 2-suited? I'll post the results later tonight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Two-suited, and it's a no-brainer push that's not worthy of discussion.
The fact that there are two behind you is the driving reason to push, IMO. If you just call, they have decent (although still probably improper) odds to draw to whatever they may hold. Get them out, get on w/ the next hand right now, says I.
lastchance
08-06-2005, 03:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that there are two behind you is the driving reason to push, IMO. If you just call, they have decent (although still probably improper) odds to draw to whatever they may hold. Get them out, get on w/ the next hand right now, says I.
[/ QUOTE ]
They already have to pay t225, over a fourth of their stack. At most, they have 4 outs, and they're not getting to see a river.
I really doubt you can make that call profitable.
curtains
08-06-2005, 03:47 AM
You should move allin, I think anything else is pretty ridiculous, especially folding. Calling is exotic but I just don't like it somehow. I think you will get a caller when you move allin, I don't see why you have to be greedy/creative. If the lunatic bet into 3 opponents for 225 and plans to fold, then Id be extremely surprised.
[ QUOTE ]
They already have to pay t225, over a fourth of their stack. At most, they have 4 outs, and they're not getting to see a river.
I really doubt you can make that call profitable.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's true. I think the fact that I play mostly on Stars and mostly at lower levels is distorting my thinking a little here. On my usual games, A) the play is worse, and people call w/ four outs or less all the time; and B) the stacks are deeper, which also means looser play early.
Upon further review, I can understand the math and reasoning behind merely calling here, but I'd probably still push, in part because I'd just rather end it now, probably with a nearly dead-drawing caller, and in part because anything else just seems like FPS.
lastchance
08-06-2005, 03:56 AM
One of the reasons calling is good is because you can get someone drawing thin to overcall you, with very little chance of beating you.
Party play is bad too. We definitely think that we have Villain beat, and he's giving us his stack, but we also want to make sure that Villain does give us our stack.
45suited
08-06-2005, 03:57 AM
Honestly I could never see calling here. Since you're going to play the hand, my only play here is to push. Especially with the players yet to act behind you. This pot is getting pretty big, I don't see any reason to get fancy (we're dealing with 800 chip stacks here).
If the original bettor has a worse ace, he's likely calling you anyway. I know about the odds and wanting to make people call with incorrect odds, etc... but I think the concept of taking down sizeable pots NOW is a bit underrated. Push now, if you get a caller, fine. But winning the pot and getting a nice stack early in the game is fine too.
It just seems like whenever I try to get a little fancy with my play, it bites me in the ass.
I don't know if my style is "incorrect" but I really don't want two or three callers seeing the turn. If I get one guy calling my push, fine. If I take this pot now, that's okay too. But I don't want someone (incorrectly even) thinking that they're priced into calling and then sucking out on me. I'd rather win a good sized pot than lose a huge one here.
curtains
08-06-2005, 04:06 AM
Im sure strong arguments could be made for flat calling here...I know I'd never do it. The pot is just so gigantic (Its going to be about 1800 once the original bettor calls the allin) that I don't want to let someone see a turn for 200 when they may have a few outs to beat me. And don't forget that plenty of these times, our idiot opponents will call a bet and an allin with some crap ace. You know you've seen it happen many times.
It just feels too exotic to me but it may be okay..
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