Set of J's

[iceman5]

$/5/$10 NL

Solid tight player raise in EP to $40. Im the only caller on the button with JJ. We both have $1000.

Pot is $95 and the flop comes KJ4 all spades. He bets $30, I raise to $130, he reraises to $500.

Standard push?

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
$/5/$10 NL

Solid tight player raise in EP to $40. Im the only caller on the button with JJ. We both have $1000.

Pot is $95 and the flop comes KJ4 all spades. He bets $30, I raise to $130, he reraises to $500.

Standard push?

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably either has AsA, AsK, or KK. AQs and QTs are possibilities but unlikely. Although AA and AK are more likely than KK, he is a huge favorite when he has KK, and you are only a 2:1 favorite when he has AA or AK. Its close, but I'd probably push.

[lapoker17]

Standard. We see black AA or A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK - If he has KK, so be it - Don't know if this guys raises A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif in EP, but whatever - I'm not getting away from this here.

[Allinlife]

Villans hand range is AQs, ATs, AA with spade, KK.

Allin is definately better than calling, but I don't think folding is out of question. you are not commited yet and though you have 35% equity vs made flush, I think against known 'solid' player, you are likely to be putting the money as 2:1 dog vs made flush.

I don't think none made hand like AA, KK would lead weak then come over the top with a committing raise, rather they'd probably pot it to begin with.

but still, i push here and river quads.

[Yeti]

Push allin and suckout.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Villans hand range is AQs, ATs, AA with spade, KK.

Allin is definately better than calling, but I don't think folding is out of question. you are not commited yet and though you have 35% equity vs made flush, I think against known 'solid' player, you are likely to be putting the money as 2:1 dog vs made flush.

I don't think none made hand like AA, KK would lead weak then come over the top with a committing raise, rather they'd probably pot it to begin with.

but still, i push here and river quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, I didn't notice the $30 lead on the flop. Not sure if that means he has the made flush. Maybe he would do that with KK to induce a raise so he could go over the top?

[HoldEmKillah]

His underbet on the flop then reraise scares me. But using the logic slick did, I also push but am rather uneasy about it.

[thabadguy]

Is just calling villain's bet here a bad option, i often have trouble in such situations, and tend to raise..but im thinking calling isnt too bad..if he does have the flush and u boat up, he doesnt give u credit for it because of the flop call and u can destack him.

[HoldEmKillah]

You're just gonna call and more than half your stack is the middle on the turn? A non-pairing spade hits then what? Fold to his push without seeing the river? No. Push now and see both cards.

[thabadguy]

I meant call the 30.

[Post-Oak]

Raise more on the flop. Make it 180 or more.

Push after his reraise.


Calling the flop bet is beyond terrible.

[HoldEmKillah]

ahhhhh

[hit_the_set]

push and just hope that he does'nt suckout.

[mgsimpleton]

ok folks i'm going to take a stab because iceman and post-oak have betrayed their posts of official nits.

his bet of 30 scares me. like, really truely scares me. i think with AsK or AsA he leads more then pushes all in. Here I put him on a flush or a set. Most likely IMO is KK. I am folding here. I'll take all the sh*t in the world from it but I am folding. I think you are 10% of the time slightly ahead (to AsA), 30% of the time behind to a flush and 60% of the time behind to KK. I ain't no math genius but this looks like a fold, folks.

[Ulysses]

I like calling the $30 bet.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Whoa, you're getting good implied odds against a flush here. I can't believe you would fold. I think calling sounds about right, though.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
I like calling the $30 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't tell if you're rooting for the board to pair or rooting for a spade to slow down his KK or just waiting to see what he does on the turn or what. i mean clearly it is waiting to see what he does on the turn but if he fires big on a blank then what?

[mgsimpleton]

you ain't getting implied odds once you make it 130 and he makes it 500. i was responding to what the OP should do, not once he bets 30. no i don't advocate a fold to the 30 dollar bet =) /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[AZK]

Iceman/postoak...you have officially been replaced by duck. Just kidding.

I agree the 30 bet is scary, I talked to thabadguy about it, I think I like calling a lot better than raising when he makes it 30. Folding is a little bit extreme.

[TheWorstPlayer]

ok, but you can see how your post looks like you are scared enough just by the $30 bet to fold. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif AZK thought you meant that, too. But now it all makes more sense.

[esbesb]

Geez, what could a solid tight player reasonably have besides a made flush or possibly something like AsK. I mean, he has to bet more than 30 on that board with any hand other than those two I would think.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
I talked to thabadguy about it, I think I like calling a lot better than raising when he makes it 30.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this whole thread some kind of joke?

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
Geez, what could a solid tight player reasonably have besides a made flush or possibly something like AsK. I mean, he has to bet more than 30 on that board with any hand other than those two I would think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is like the twilight zone.

[thabadguy]

Yes,as is the rest of the forum You thought MHNL was a SERIOUS poker forum??? WTF is wrong with you man? your sarcasm detector is broken, i suggest you fix it and then post.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes,as is the rest of the forum You thought MHNL was a SERIOUS poker forum??? WTF is wrong with you man? your sarcasm detector is broken, i suggest you fix it and then post.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Here's how I see the hand, and I think you guys will agree.

When he makes that $30 bet, I anticipate that if I raise he will definitely reraise it to the neighborhood of $500. I just get that feeling, I don't know how. Call it a wild guess. So I don't raise, because I see this as an obvious trap (again, call it a wild guess). So I just smoothcall.

I think Iceman lost this hand. Call it a wild guess. So probably he should have folded. I mean, we all know the board ain't pairing (unless villain has KK). So why not just fold to the $30?

In fact, even if the villain has the naked A, we all know a spade is gonna hit. Again, this leads me to believe that Ice should fold to the $30 bet.

I hope we are not being TOO results oriented here.

[mgsimpleton]

your advice here, while insightful, is clearly wrong.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
your advice here, while insightful, is clearly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how am I supposed to know that? Until El Diablo posts, do any of us really know for sure?


Calling the $30 (as opposed to raising) is ridiculous.

If you want to say he should fold to the reraise to $500, I can live with that. In this case, my weak-tight nit tendencies are at war with my set miner principles.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the $30 (as opposed to raising) is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain why. This bet is much scarier than a pot sized bet.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling the $30 (as opposed to raising) is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain why. This bet is much scarier than a pot sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is possible some people are advocating calling the $30 bet because they know he got reraised.

[srm80]

of course, hindsight is 20/20, but I agree with calling the 30 bet. Why go crazy with your stack when you aren't a huge favorite against the player's likely holdings and if he has a made flush you would be pretty much screwed getting all your money in trying to get a boat. If he does have a made flush on the flop, why not call the 30 and see what the turn brings? If the turn pairs, you had a cheap draw to the nuts, and if the turn is not a spade then you may have a better idea of where you are at, depending on whether he bets or checks.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
This bet is much scarier than a pot sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would ask that you explain your reasoning here.


Here is my reasoning. He is betting $30 into a $95 pot. This bet can mean many things.
1. he has the nuts
2. he wants you to fold, and realizes that you can interpret this small bet as "the nuts".
3. he wants to freeze you up into calling and giving him a great price on his draw to the nuts (the naked A of spade)
4. he has KK and suspects that you will raise on this scary flop with a wide range of holdings if he shows "weakness"
5. he could also have a hand like QsQx where he might feel like he is ahead or has outs

Now please erase from your mind the knowledge that he comes back over the top with a pot committing reraise of IceMan's raise.

Do you really think smooth calling $30 on a board where any spade will obviously screw you (or possibly kill your action) is a good idea?

My mean reason for raising is that you are probably ahead and he will still have no idea as to the true nature of your holding. He can't really narrow the range down beyond a flush, baby flush, trips, pair + draw, nut flush draw, or just a bluff on a scary board.

The bottom line is that you don't know why he is betting $30. If he is a good player, he can figure out that a $30 bet might look "scary" to you. He could be freezing you up, or trying to get you to fold. When he bets $30 he could be on a draw. He could be continuation betting a missed flop. He could be feeling you out with AK (no spades).

I think the fact that we "know" he reraises to $500 straight is clouding people's judgement. In other words, this sounds like "results" oriented thinking to me.

I would raise here with a decent range of semi-bluffs. I will also obviously raise here with made hands, including baby flushes. I have gotten it all in on monotone boards with baby flushes and been surprised to see how weak my opponent's hands were. They seem to assume you are on a semi-bluff, or they try to semi-bluff you.

You are ahead of a lot of hands which bet $30 here, and you can get some money out of his drawing hands or TPTK type hands. Of course, if a spade hits the turn, you can slow down (remember, the reraise to $500 is not a foregone conclusion).

I think the villain did play this hand like he has a monster, but that is because we know he reraised to $500. If that part were left out, I am sure there would be no one claiming a smooth call of $30 is fine.

If he does have KK, he took a risk by gambling that hero would reopen the betting action. Or he could have the nuts. I can't believe I am the one having to say this, but you can't always fear "monsters" under the bed.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
of course, hindsight is 20/20,


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't say. If the post was:
Flop comes KJ4, all spades
He bets $30, my action?

Then we would not be getting this sudden nit like tendencies. TBG would reraise here with 49d.

[ QUOTE ]

if he has a made flush you would be pretty much screwed getting all your money in trying to get a boat.


[/ QUOTE ]

With two cards to come, you are 1 in 3 to fill up. You are not exactly drawing dead.

[ QUOTE ]

If he does have a made flush on the flop, why not call the 30 and see what the turn brings? If the turn pairs, you had a cheap draw to the nuts,


[/ QUOTE ]

The nuts??? These nits are suddenly quaking that they are up against KK.

[ QUOTE ]

and if the turn is not a spade then you may have a better idea of where you are at, depending on whether he bets or checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where you are at could be that you missed a chance to extract money from a naked As, or that you failed to build the pot for the board pairing river.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
1. he has the nuts

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't want to raise.
[ QUOTE ]

2. he wants you to fold, and realizes that you can interpret this small bet as "the nuts".


[/ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous as no one is folding for $30 here. If he wanted you to fold, wouldn't he be much more likely to make a pot-sized bet? Yes, it can be 'second level' thinking, but how often do you really see this type of bet? And it doesn't address his holding, anyways. Are you saying he has just a stone cold bluff? Then you don't want to raise, either.
[ QUOTE ]

3. he wants to freeze you up into calling and giving him a great price on his draw to the nuts (the naked A of spade)


[/ QUOTE ]
How often will the naked ace of spades come over the top of your raise? Fairly often? If you're going to fold if he does, you don't want to raise here, either.
[ QUOTE ]

4. he has KK and suspects that you will raise on this scary flop with a wide range of holdings if he shows "weakness"


[/ QUOTE ]
You don't want to raise.
[ QUOTE ]

5. he could also have a hand like QsQx where he might feel like he is ahead or has outs


[/ QUOTE ]
You probably want to raise in this case because he is unlikely to come over the top when he could be drawing dead and you want to charge him to draw to his flush. But this seems least likely. Wouldn't you expect a pot-sized bet from this holding at least most of the time?

[mgsimpleton]

i agree with post-oak.

whoa. i agree. with post-oak. i think given the range of hands you HAVE to raise the flop, as he so carefully and thoughtfully detailed =) (no not sarcasm) but given the reraise, it is a fold.

whoa actually, i think calling and waiting for blank turn to act might be smart too. damn ignore me i'm confused. i hate sets on monotone flops.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are 10% of the time slightly ahead .

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're ahead, you're ahead by 2:1

[ QUOTE ]
60% of the time behind to KK

[/ QUOTE ]
No way he has KK 60% of the time here. I suspect the nut flush more than KK. KK would bet larger to protect his hand.

This situation does look pretty grim, though. Not sure if I can find a fold, though, and if I don't fold, I push.

I hope to be looking at bottom set, or A/images/graemlins/spade.gifKx often enough to make this profitable.

PAIR THE BOARD

Edit: read replies to ducks statement.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]

I hope to be looking at bottom set often enough to make this profitable.



[/ QUOTE ]

"solid tight player opens in EP for $40"

how many solid tight players you know do this with 44. and if he has pair/flush draw combo he sure took a goofy line. hey it is possible but damned goofy, imho.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
how many solid tight players you know do this with 44. and if he has pair/flush draw combo he sure took a goofy line. hey it is possible but damned goofy

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right.

His hand range IS pretty narrow if he's tight/solid...

AxAs AsKx, KK, AsQs, AsJs, maybe QsQx

No other hand he can really have that you beat except a bluff.

Against a solid player with no reason to expect him to make a move, I guess it is a fold.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous as no one is folding for $30 here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? What if hero's hand were 5d5h? What are you talking about?

[ QUOTE ]

If he wanted you to fold, wouldn't he be much more likely to make a pot-sized bet? Yes, it can be 'second level' thinking, but how often do you really see this type of bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

It can be second level thinking. Maybe he is doing it as a continuation bet and doesn't want to risk much because of the scary board (and he knows it is scary for hero too).

[ QUOTE ]

And it doesn't address his holding, anyways. Are you saying he has just a stone cold bluff? Then you don't want to raise, either.


[/ QUOTE ]

It could be a continuation bet with TsTd. Or maybe AhQs. You sure you want to give him a free card?

[ QUOTE ]

How often will the naked ace of spades come over the top of your raise? Fairly often? If you're going to fold if he does, you don't want to raise here, either.


[/ QUOTE ]

Those are two decent sized "ifs".

[ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you expect a pot-sized bet from this holding at least most of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're back to possible level 2 thinking again.


What if he had AhKh?

I think there are a lot of hands he could have when he bet $30.

[Post-Oak]

TWP, also remember that a spade could not only make your hand a loser, but, alternatively, kill your action.

It is probable that he will call your raise with TPTK, or a hand like red aces. He will think there is a great chance you are semi-bluffing him, or even using a pure bluff. He's not going to immediately assume that you have a flush or a set when you raise him on that scary board.

[technologic]

you're definitely getting implied to hit quads. call.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling the $30 (as opposed to raising) is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain why. This bet is much scarier than a pot sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is possible some people are advocating calling the $30 bet because they know he got reraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that he got reraised actually makes it more palatable to raise, not less. If I have to get my stack in here, I'd rather do it on the flop.

[punter11235]

If you want to earn some serious money here you need Villain to have made flush because with only one pair hes going to fold to everything. (Betting 1/3pot as a semibluff with As is untypical).
The best way to play against made flush is to call because if you raise Villain will call and kill you on the turn.
(This line also gains vs one pair because Villain may think that you are drawing and bet the turn again)

Best wishes

[Ulysses]

First off, I pretty much ignore KK here. If he has that, oh well. If the board pairs, he stacks me.

The only two hands that I think I can stack against here and be ahead are AsAx AsKx. All other hands I either can't get much more out of or they have me beat. I'm unlikely to lay my hand down before the river, so if he bets pot, I know I'm likely to face a big bet on the turn and I might as well just get my money in on the flop. But when he bets $30, I realize that I can call and see the turn, and will probably have an easy bet to call on the turn as well. If he has something like red AK, I'll probably see a couple more small bets. There's a good chance I'll value raise the river if he bets the turn and river smallish. If the turn or river is a spade, we've kept the pot small so I can call and beat red AK.

If I pop it to $150 or so here and he calls, we have a $400 pot. What if the turn is a spade now? And he leads? And he checks?

If the turn is a blank and he leads pot, what then? Or if he checks and checkraises you?

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to earn some serious money here you need Villain to have made flush because with only one pair hes going to fold to everything. (Betting 1/3pot as a semibluff with As is untypical).
The best way to play against made flush is to call because if you raise Villain will call and kill you on the turn.
(This line also gains vs one pair because Villain may think that you are drawing and bet the turn again)

Best wishes

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting $30 into a $95 pot in this situation is atypical no matter what he has. How often do you see someone do that?

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I pretty much ignore KK here. If he has that, oh well. If the board pairs, he stacks me.

The only two hands that I think I can stack against here and be ahead are AsAx AsKx. All other hands I either can't get much more out of or they have me beat. I'm unlikely to lay my hand down before the river, so if he bets pot, I know I'm likely to face a big bet on the turn and I might as well just get my money in on the flop. But when he bets $30, I realize that I can call and see the turn, and will probably have an easy bet to call on the turn as well. If he has something like red AK, I'll probably see a couple more small bets. There's a good chance I'll value raise the river if he bets the turn and river smallish. If the turn or river is a spade, we've kept the pot small so I can call and beat red AK.

If I pop it to $150 or so here and he calls, we have a $400 pot. What if the turn is a spade now? And he leads? And he checks?

If the turn is a blank and he leads pot, what then? Or if he checks and checkraises you?

[/ QUOTE ]

So youre calling the $30? What if you call and the turn is a spade? Then your only calling if he gives you odds (implied or otherwise) to chase your boat?

It just doesnt seem right to me to let him catch another spade for only $30.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting $30 into a $95 pot in this situation is atypical no matter what he has. How often do you see someone do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's right /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I think that turn card will more often help me than Villain so I like calling this bet. But I am not so sure.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think betting $30 into a $95 pot in this situation is atypical no matter what he has. How often do you see someone do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's right /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I think that turn card will more often help me than Villain so I like calling this bet. But I am not so sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that? There are only 7 cards that improve my hand. If he a spade, there are 9 that improve his to a flush and others that improve it to a hand that may overtake me depending on what he has. He has to either have a high spade (AA, AK, AQ, QQ with a spade) or have KK. Id be shocked if he had red AK or red AA, but even if he did, Im going to hate a spade falling.

[sully4321]

[ QUOTE ]
$/5/$10 NL

Solid tight player raise in EP to $40. Im the only caller on the button with JJ. We both have $1000.

Pot is $95 and the flop comes KJ4 all spades. He bets $30, I raise to $130, he reraises to $500.

Standard push?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... standard push. Harrington states you're supposed to pay off set-over-set. If you don't you are playing too weak-tight.

[thabadguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think betting $30 into a $95 pot in this situation is atypical no matter what he has. How often do you see someone do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's right /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I think that turn card will more often help me than Villain so I like calling this bet. But I am not so sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that? There are only 7 cards that improve my hand. If he a spade, there are 9 that improve his to a flush and others that improve it to a hand that may overtake me depending on what he has. He has to either have a high spade (AA, AK, AQ, QQ with a spade) or have KK. Id be shocked if he had red AK or red AA, but even if he did, Im going to hate a spade falling.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason I dont like raising this is because of the bet size of 30, i dont see it as a semi-bluff because of how small it is, no1 is gonna fold for 30. I was not even concerned about KK raising me, like Diablo says, if board pairs he is taking my stack if he has KK.
IF he does have the flush, then just calling the 30, is a good option because IF the board pairs, he doesnt give you credit for a set, and you have implied odds to hit your hand and take a large chunk of money from a made flush.

Post-Oak, you said i would be raising with 94d here. OF COURSE I WOULD!! Its just for fold equity and the bitch that i would do that, god in heaven know i have no intention of playing that on this board.But with a set of Jacks, its a different story.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he got reraised actually makes it more palatable to raise, not less. If I have to get my stack in here, I'd rather do it on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point you are missing is that the reraise is clueing people in that villain had a monster, and this is causing results oriented thinking.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I pretty much ignore KK here. If he has that, oh well. If the board pairs, he stacks me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Smoothcalling is not a valid defense against KK anyway.

[ QUOTE ]

The only two hands that I think I can stack against here and be ahead are AsAx AsKx.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think villain will occasionally be reraising with the naked As. Some players (usually these wouldn't be referred to as "solid" though), will occasionally take hands like QsQh too far here.

[ QUOTE ]

All other hands I either can't get much more out of or they have me beat.


[/ QUOTE ]

Due to the nature of the flop, I still hold that many opponents will call a flop raise with TPTK type hands. Many will also call a flop raise with a hand like QsQx, or even TsTx. They will tend to think that you could be semi-bluffing, or using the scary board to move them off of whatever they raised PF OOP with.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm unlikely to lay my hand down before the river, so if he bets pot, I know I'm likely to face a big bet on the turn and I might as well just get my money in on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]

But when he bets $30, I realize that I can call and see the turn, and will probably have an easy bet to call on the turn as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless one of those cards you don't want to see hits the turn. Or one of those cards he doesn't want to see. So why not raise it on the flop, when you can get him to pay with the hands I mentioned?


[ QUOTE ]

If he has something like red AK, I'll probably see a couple more small bets.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless a scare card falls. Why not start getting his money on the flop? Why wait?

[ QUOTE ]

There's a good chance I'll value raise the river if he bets the turn and river smallish. If the turn or river is a spade, we've kept the pot small so I can call and beat red AK.


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt he would bet with red AK if a spade falls. Earlier you said he would likely interpret a smoothcall of the $30 as a draw to spades. If no spade falls and he was betting into me, I wouldn't reopen the betting by raising the river. I think it makes the hand easier to play if you are raising him before the river instead of calling down his smallish bets on the flop and turn.

[ QUOTE ]

If I pop it to $150 or so here and he calls, we have a $400 pot. What if the turn is a spade now? And he leads? And he checks?


[/ QUOTE ]

I would advocate raising to 180 or more on the flop. In the situation you described, there would be 395 in the pot after the flop action. If a spade falls, I would only call if I was getting 4 to 1 implied odds, so he would have to be overbetting the pot for me to fold. Yes, I would fold on the river if the board did not pair and he pushed the last of his chips in (would only be in the neighborhood of $400-500 at that point).

If he checks, that is a more complex situation. I probably check behind, due to the 1 in 5 chance the river will pair and give me a chance to crush him if he hit his hand (with the spade). If the board does not pair, that can be a sticky situation, but you won't be playing for your stack. If he bets huge, then fold. Calling a pot size bet is read dependent. Against a solid player I usually fold there, and that is another reason I prefer to begin the aggressive action earlier.

[ QUOTE ]

If the turn is a blank and he leads pot, what then? Or if he checks and checkraises you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push.

I am looking at it like you should raise the flop because he is likely to call with a variety of inferior hands. Why wait for the turn? If he has nothing on the flop, he is likely already shut down when you smoothcall. So you lose nothing by raising the flop (he'll fold), but make it a little harder on yourself if a spade hits the turn (he could have a hand like 9s9h).

How do you play a baby flush here? The nut flush? The naked A of spade? I guess the answer to these questions could also influence whether you raise or smoothcall. I like to be aggressive in all 3 of those situations (of course I would not always raise with the As).

I was wrong when I said calling the 30 was "beyond terrible", but I still think raising on the flop is the best line. I can't really see you giving anything away by raising. It does not define your hand. You are making money against the same ranges of hands he will call you with after a non-spade turn.

The benefits are that you are charging his draws and overall making the hand easier for you to play. You also charge him for red AK type hands before a scare cards hits and kills your action/freezes YOU up.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]

The reason I dont like raising this is because of the bet size of 30, i dont see it as a semi-bluff because of how small it is, no1 is gonna fold for 30.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold for 30. Let's say I was set mining with red 7s. I would fold for 30. There is no turn card I want to see. Why call? Or what if I had red AQ? There are plenty of hands that will fold on this flop for $30.

[ QUOTE ]

IF he does have the flush, then just calling the 30, is a good option because IF the board pairs, he doesnt give you credit for a set, and you have implied odds to hit your hand and take a large chunk of money from a made flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but that is only in the case he has a made flush.

[ QUOTE ]

Post-Oak, you said i would be raising with 94d here. OF COURSE I WOULD!! Its just for fold equity and the bitch that i would do that, god in heaven know i have no intention of playing that on this board.But with a set of Jacks, its a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponent knows you are this type of player (LAG), then shouldn't you play your made hands fast too? You will get paid off with trips here a lot more than I would. Use your LAG image to its fullest and get paid off on made hands.

[iceman5]

I raised to $130, he reaised to $500, I pushed and he had KK.

I really think this guy wouldve reraised with AK or AA if he had the As.

[TonyBlair]

[ QUOTE ]
Solid tight player raise in EP to $40. Im the only caller on the button with JJ. We both have $1000.

Pot is $95 and the flop comes KJ4 all spades. He bets $30, I raise to $130, he reraises to $500.

Standard push?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tight solid player....

Say he has either AsA(3), KsK(3), AsK (3) or AQs(1). I'm not sure about QsQ being played this way.

If all the money goes in every time here, I think JJJ loses out. Feel free to correct me.

I'd vote for a call (of the original 30) and playing as small a pot as possible. If I call, I'm only getting all the money in if I hit.

As the situation stands, I'd probably think about it for a while and....
...(online - see the 30 seconds ticking down to timeout, [censored] myself and push)
...(live - take my time and maybe find a fold - if I'm a completely tilt free. Actually, curiosity usually makes me call/push with sets).

[srm80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
of course, hindsight is 20/20,


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't say. If the post was:
Flop comes KJ4, all spades
He bets $30, my action?

Then we would not be getting this sudden nit like tendencies. TBG would reraise here with 49d.

[ QUOTE ]

if he has a made flush you would be pretty much screwed getting all your money in trying to get a boat.


[/ QUOTE ]

With two cards to come, you are 1 in 3 to fill up. You are not exactly drawing dead.

[ QUOTE ]

If he does have a made flush on the flop, why not call the 30 and see what the turn brings? If the turn pairs, you had a cheap draw to the nuts,


[/ QUOTE ]

The nuts??? These nits are suddenly quaking that they are up against KK.

[ QUOTE ]

and if the turn is not a spade then you may have a better idea of where you are at, depending on whether he bets or checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where you are at could be that you missed a chance to extract money from a naked As, or that you failed to build the pot for the board pairing river.

[/ QUOTE ]

woaaaaahhh...relax, quagmire. are you this uppity at the table? ok, so cut the line off at the 30$ flop bet. I still fear a reraise if I put more money in instead of just calling. He was UTG, I am giving him credit for a good hand, at least he has an As. Like I said before, why go crazy with a big re-raise when he could come over the top, either with a made hand or as a semi-bluff, leaving me with a tough decision of calling all my chips off in a marginal situation. No matter how you put it to me, I am not re-raising after this flop, I would rather call the 30 and see a turn. I love the turn, and I want to see it for 30 dollars here.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
of course, hindsight is 20/20,


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't say. If the post was:
Flop comes KJ4, all spades
He bets $30, my action?

Then we would not be getting this sudden nit like tendencies. TBG would reraise here with 49d.

[ QUOTE ]

if he has a made flush you would be pretty much screwed getting all your money in trying to get a boat.


[/ QUOTE ]

With two cards to come, you are 1 in 3 to fill up. You are not exactly drawing dead.

[ QUOTE ]

If he does have a made flush on the flop, why not call the 30 and see what the turn brings? If the turn pairs, you had a cheap draw to the nuts,


[/ QUOTE ]

The nuts??? These nits are suddenly quaking that they are up against KK.

[ QUOTE ]

and if the turn is not a spade then you may have a better idea of where you are at, depending on whether he bets or checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where you are at could be that you missed a chance to extract money from a naked As, or that you failed to build the pot for the board pairing river.

[/ QUOTE ]

woaaaaahhh...relax, quagmire. are you this uppity at the table? ok, so cut the line off at the 30$ flop bet. I still fear a reraise if I put more money in instead of just calling. He was UTG, I am giving him credit for a good hand, at least he has an As. Like I said before, why go crazy with a big re-raise when he could come over the top, either with a made hand or as a semi-bluff, leaving me with a tough decision of calling all my chips off in a marginal situation. No matter how you put it to me, I am not re-raising after this flop, I would rather call the 30 and see a turn. I love the turn, and I want to see it for 30 dollars here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that alot of people are being results oriented here because they saw me raise ans get reraised.

If I had posted this hand and said that I flat called the $30...and then the turn was a 4th spade (which it was), I would get blasted from all directionns for letting him hit fis flush for next to nothing. Everyone wouldve said "you have to raise that flop, you weak tight moron".

In this case it didnt matter what I did, because he had KK and I wasnt folding, especially if the board paired, but most times I think he has the As here along with a K, Q or another A.

[srm80]

i honestly don't think you would get blasted for flat calling the 30 on the flop, even though it appears that some people just love to blast everything, like they could just write the book themselves!

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
I raised to $130, he reaised to $500, I pushed and he had KK.

I really think this guy wouldve reraised with AK or AA if he had the As.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes but don't you think he would have led pot so his 3 bet could be a reasonable all-in with a big draw like that?

[mgsimpleton]

in my original reply, people said i was being results oriented. i said i liked the flop raise.

however given the flop raise, it enabled you to get off cheap as hell. you only have 130 in, you're not getting odds to push if he has a flush and KK you're royally screwed. he wore a neon sign that says "i have a monster, not a draw" and it was flashing. a draw would have not left himself 500 on a blank turn out of position, even donkeys know they want to be all in. still you chose to ignore the neon sign because harrington says you are supposed to go broke.

i still hodl to my 10 AsA 30 flush and 60 KK breakdown i gave but even switching the second two since most of you seemed to think it was AsQs (tight ep raiser? hm) doesn't matter, still aren't getting odds.

i understand it is depressing to fold a set when you have been mining for sets. kind of like being a gold miner and finding out your "gold" is really, well, [censored]. but life sucks and sometimes you have to fold. i don't mean to seem high and mighty because i was right but SERIOUSLY you are allowed to lay down a set. that's all.

[srm80]

here is something interesting. now evaluate the move from the villians perspective? good 30$ bet on the flop?

[mgsimpleton]

obviously not.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. he has the nuts

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't want to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes you do, to find out where you are and get off cheap rather than paying off progressively bigger bets.

[ QUOTE ]



4. he has KK and suspects that you will raise on this scary flop with a wide range of holdings if he shows "weakness"


[/ QUOTE ]
You don't want to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes you do. 130 is the cheapest you'll ever get off set over set.

folks, you are allowed to raise for information, especially when it might save you money over the course of the hand. this is one of those times.

[srm80]

why not, he made an extra hundo when you re-raised?

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
obviously not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we all agree that the $30 bet was bad with KK. This guy is a pretty good player so I didnt think there was a chance in hell he had KK.

If you thought there was very little chance he had KK, wouldnt you push? I mean if you had a read on him that told you KK was maybe a 10% likelyhood, even after he reraised, wouldnt you push all in then?

I dont think my play was bad, I think my read was bad, but Ive played with this guy at lower levels ALOT and really didnt think he would do that.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
obviously not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we all agree that the $30 bet was bad with KK. This guy is a pretty good player so I didnt think there was a chance in hell he had KK.

If you thought there was very little chance he had KK, wouldnt you push? I mean if you had a read on him that told you KK was maybe a 10% likelyhood, even after he reraised, wouldnt you push all in then?

I dont think my play was bad, I think my read was bad, but Ive played with this guy at lower levels ALOT and really didnt think he would do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i thought he didn't have KK then it's a flush and i'm still not getting odds, so hell no i wouldn't push. kind of sucks to push in with the worst and scream "pair the board!" at your computer.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
why not, he made an extra hundo when you re-raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a joke, right?

you're saying he made 100 bucks on set over set (if hero folds) so it is a good bet on the flop?

let me rephrase what i said at first. this is a joke, right?

[srm80]

let's see, a good, tight, solid player raised under the gun, gets called, flops a set of Kings on a monotone board, bets 30 into a 90 dollar pot, you say this bet confuses you into thinking that he probably doesn't have what he really has...and you still think it was a bad bet?

[mgsimpleton]

at which point did i say i was confused about what he had? try reading what i wrote before sounding so high and mighty. my read was actually spot on and if he had made a real bet on the flop, he probably would have gotten my stack had i been in the hand. as he played it, he would have gotten 130. so do i think it was a bad bet? yeah i'd say about $870 bad.

[captZEEbo1]

KK will rarely underbet this flop IMO. I think a hand like A/images/graemlins/spade.gifK looks like the nuts on this flop to most people. Flopped flush is possible, but he is making too big of a 3-bet which is saying plz fold but I have many outs, also note:I will not fold.

[srm80]

[ QUOTE ]
your advice here, while insightful, is clearly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

who is high and mighty?

[srm80]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't mean to seem high and mighty because i was right

[/ QUOTE ]

oops, you done it again...

[srm80]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with post-oak.

whoa. i agree. with post-oak. i think given the range of hands you HAVE to raise the flop, as he so carefully and thoughtfully detailed =) (no not sarcasm) but given the reraise, it is a fold.

whoa actually, i think calling and waiting for blank turn to act might be smart too. damn ignore me i'm confused. i hate sets on monotone flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

looks to me like you said you were confused there, bro.
I ask questions to understand better, that is what this forum is for, if I am not mistaken. If you want to call me high and mighty, take youself off of the skyscraper of the pedastal you put yourself on, man. I never said I was right or wrong about anything. All you do is post who is right and wrong

[srm80]

it's difficult to understand a +EV approach to a given hand when all people do is toss bricks at each other and pull their friends' chains if they think they are right. let's work together people, give peace a chance!

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your advice here, while insightful, is clearly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

who is high and mighty?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol if you'd read the post to which my post was in response, you'd realize that post-oak's post was clearly sarcastic. thus my post was taking it literally as a joke. see when i post that his advice is wrong when it is so obviously wrong and a joke, it is... well a joke.

get a life. more importantly, get a clue.

p.s. i'm not your "bro."

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
$/5/$10 NL

Solid tight player raise in EP to $40. Im the only caller on the button with JJ. We both have $1000.

Pot is $95 and the flop comes KJ4 all spades. He bets $30, I raise to $130, he reraises to $500.

Standard push?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a lot to be said about waiting for the turn to drop the bomb on a suited flop like this. Once the turn card comes, you know if you're eager for a small pot (it's a fourth suited card) or not. Coincidentally, you now have a small pot. People will be far less likely to semibluff raise with the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif on the turn, so you can give more credit to their raises. And if you happen to boat up, you can ship your money into the middle without any worries. (Well, in this case you would still lose, but you shouldn't beat yourself up over boat over boat.)

About the only advantage of making your move on the flop is that you push out a medium spade, and make A/images/graemlins/spade.gif pay for a suckout, but with K and J on the board, and a tight EP raiser, there is really only one medium spade to worry about, the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. The A is not going anywhere, and may well come over the top, and any other spade is unlikely.

[srm80]

therein lies the problem duck, you are just stating that everybody is right and wrong, or your opinion is right. who is right and wrong seems to be decided by you, completely disregarding the fact that there could be a couple right moves. i forgot that you were the most amazing poker player...ever. where can i get your book? about the sarcasm, I didn't know I was talking to George Carlin. Were you being sarcastic when you said you didn't mean to seem high and might when you are right... Of course, there is a right and wrong answer there too.
later bro