KK on the Button - What's the Play?

[Hooked on Fish]

Party Poker $215 Sunday Tournament.

Average Stack: $11,000
Largest Stack: $60,000
My Stack: $22,000
Blinds: 500/1000
280 out of 2,000 or so left - In the money starts at 220

I have KK on the button. I've been moved fairly recently so I don't have reads on anyone at the table.

EMP raises to 4,000, everyone folds to me. I call.

Flop comes 7/4/3 rainblow. EMP bets 4,000, what's my play from here?

Thanks

[Hal 2000]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker $215 Sunday Tournament.

Average Stack: $11,000
Largest Stack: $60,000
My Stack: $22,000
Blinds: 500/1000
280 out of 2,000 or so left - In the money starts at 220

I have KK on the button. I've been moved fairly recently so I don't have reads on anyone at the table.

EMP raises to 4,000, everyone folds to me. I call.

Flop comes 7/4/3 rainblow. EMP bets 4,000, what's my play from here?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

What was villian's stack?
Why no preflop re-raise?

Given the action, easy push...

[Lloyd]

I'd go ahead and push. If he has an overpair he'll call you and pay you off unless he has AA in which case oh well. If he has a hand like AQ or AJ he'll check fold the turn unless he hits one of his outs, half of which you definitely don't want to see. So it will be tough to trap him for the rest of his chips unless he has a hand he'll go ahead and call a push with anyway.

[Hooked on Fish]

I forgot to state that the villain's stack size was about $23,000.

I did not raise pre-flop because I wanted to see if an Ace hit the flop.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I forgot to state that the villain's stack size was about $23,000.

I did not raise pre-flop because I wanted to see if an Ace hit the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a horrible reason, IMHO, to not raise pre-flop. Had your answer been I want to trap my opponent then that's a decent answer. But in fear of an Ace - not good.

Ace hits. He bets. You fold. He could have QQ-88 easily. If you don't understand this you're much better off just raising or pushing pre-flop.

[Hooked on Fish]

Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
You call. Quickly. There are too many hands that would push there that you are ahead of. If you never fold KK pre-flop you will be far ahead then those times you're caught by AA.

[Hal 2000]

[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push?

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
I probably agree with pushing pre-flop but not because a normal raise commits us to the pot anyway. I would suggest pushing simply because making a normal raise is typically a very strong hand. Pushing is often a hand like JJ or AK which might get a call from a smaller pair. That's the second point you made which is completely valid but the whole "might as well push because you're pot committed" argument isn't the best one in a situation like this.

If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Hal 2000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
I probably agree with pushing pre-flop but not because a normal raise commits us to the pot anyway. I would suggest pushing simply because making a normal raise is typically a very strong hand. Pushing is often a hand like JJ or AK which might get a call from a smaller pair. That's the second point you made which is completely valid but the whole "might as well push because you're pot committed" argument isn't the best one in a situation like this.

If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's raised to 4xBB, and he only reraises to 8x, is that considered a "normal raise"?? I'd have thought more like 10x.... then after the flop, unless there's an ace and he makes a great read, how can he not push anyway?

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
I probably agree with pushing pre-flop but not because a normal raise commits us to the pot anyway. I would suggest pushing simply because making a normal raise is typically a very strong hand. Pushing is often a hand like JJ or AK which might get a call from a smaller pair. That's the second point you made which is completely valid but the whole "might as well push because you're pot committed" argument isn't the best one in a situation like this.

If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's raised to 4xBB, and he only reraises to 8x, is that considered a "normal raise"?? I'd have thought more like 10x.... then after the flop, unless there's an ace and he makes a great read, how can he not push anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's considered a normal raise with a big hand. That's why I personally wouldn't do it. Of course by making any type of a raise he's committed to the hand. That's not the point. Your statement that you might as well push since you're committed to the pot anyway isn't the line of thought you should be having here. It should be "I have the second best hand possible. If he has AA I'm screwed and don't care. What is the best way for me to get the rest of his chips in the pot?" Maybe you push. Maybe you make a normal raise and push or trap on the flop. Maybe you call with the idea of trapping. It depends on who you're up against and your image. But don't just push because you're pot committed. Push because you think that's how you'll get the rest of his chips in the middle. And that would be a line I often take.

[blockafor]

I think you trapped him well by not raising pre-flop. On the flop, I'd min-raise to 8K. It's called the "I think you have sh*t raise". This kind of raise makes people do strange things and gives you a good chance to stack him where he might fold to a larger raise here or he might fold if you just call and you bet on the turn.

[jgunnip]

What's villian's stack? That would affect my play before and on the flop. You also need to take into consideration the stacks in the blinds.

Anyway, I'm reraising to 10000 preflop.

[Hooked on Fish]

Here's what transpired. After he bet, I pushed all-in. He calls and show me AA.

I guess that no matter whether you re-raise pre-flop or wait until after the flop to go all-in, you're going to lose all of your chips again AA.

Unless, of course, you are able let go of the hand pre-flop. If you re-raise and you are re-raised all-in, I'm sure that some people would be able to let of KK, but it's a tough call.

[Hooked on Fish]

His stack was about $23K so he had me covered.

[Hal 2000]

Barring a great read, virtually impossible to get rid of preflop, as Lloyd correctly pointed out....

[ QUOTE ]
If you never fold KK pre-flop you will be far ahead then those times you're caught by AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jgunnip]

I don't see any way to get away from this hand and given that we don't have any reads on villian any one that lays the hand down I think is play very poorly. It sucks that he had AA and even more than he had you covered since you had a pretty decent stack. This is just one of those "that's poker" hands. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Hooked on Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
Barring a great read, virtually impossible to get rid of preflop, as Lloyd correctly pointed out....

[ QUOTE ]
If you never fold KK pre-flop you will be far ahead then those times you're caught by AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this pretty much sums it up. This being the case, you may as well re-raise pre-flop and try to get some more chips in the middle, be happy if you take the pot down right there, or not be worried about going all-in. There is only 1 hand that beats you, and if it's there . . . that's poker.

[blockafor]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless, of course, you are able let go of the hand pre-flop. If you re-raise and you are re-raised all-in, I'm sure that some people would be able to let of KK, but it's a tough call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding KK at any point in this hand would have been very bad. The stacks are way too shallow and its impossible in this situation to gain enough information to wisely lay it down.

[Blindcurve]

Before I read the replies:

First, I would have raised pre-flop with KK to get more money in the pot.

I'm sure someone is going to ask about the Villain's stack size. I don't see any reason why if you didn't have the best hand pre-flop you wouldn't have it now. Villain may have hit a set, but I think you have to raise here, if for no other reason than to define your hand. Again, had you raised pre-flop you might have a better sense of where you are, but it really doesn't seem like you have anything to worry about. Since any significant raise pot commits you, you should move in.

I assume you ran into a set or an odd straight.

FOITNOF,

-D.

Just tough luck that you ran into the one hand stronger than yours pre-flop.. nothing you can do.. You definitely can't put him on an AA and you can't play scared either