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schwza
08-05-2005, 10:29 AM
2nd hand. on the first hand i led out on a paired flop in an unraised pot and took it down.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t785)
Hero (t830)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t60) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t45</font>, UTG calls t45, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t150) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t240</font>, Hero calls t140.

River: (t630) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t300</font>, hero?

i have 530 left.

durron597
08-05-2005, 10:34 AM
On Live at the Bike yesterday the commentators were talking about how you can't just shut down 100% of the time when the third card to a flush hits. I call the river.

Another option is to check call the turn and check call the river. But I don't like giving a free card to like A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJx.

tigerite
08-05-2005, 10:40 AM
Yep, gotta call here, I'm afraid. I prefer betting the turn to prevent free cards and also get information. I don't think he raises the turn here with the flush, unless it's a very low one.

Unarmed
08-05-2005, 11:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Another option is to check call the turn and check call the river. But I don't like giving a free card to like A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJx.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my line. I don't mind giving free cards when I may already be smashed.

pooh74
08-05-2005, 12:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
2nd hand. on the first hand i led out on a paired flop in an unraised pot and took it down.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t785)
Hero (t830)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t60) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t45</font>, UTG calls t45, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t150) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t240</font>, Hero calls t140.

River: (t630) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t300</font>, hero?

i have 530 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd reraise the turn.

Much of the time. I see villain's line being Ah x, maybe he called the flop bet because he hit his kicker on flop, raised the turn incase a 4th heart came on river, and hit 2 pair on river so value bet it.

Just a scenario besides "he hit his flush so im folding" that you could consider...Id raise all in on the river....

hobbes9324
08-05-2005, 12:05 PM
I don't see how you can get away from the hand.
Especially at lower buy-ins, there are just too many
hands that some donk could be playing that you can beat.

Sometimes, things just suck.

Dr_Jeckyl_00
08-05-2005, 12:22 PM
I have called (when tilting) and folded (when playing well) in this situation. I think more often then not when you are betting into an opponent and then they start betting into you, you're beaten. I would have bet more on the flop b/c I always try to protect my hand with a drawing board. then maybe CR the turn, fold if reraised. In your situation, I would probably fold to his turn raise... it is still early and you have enough chips to play for a while.

Uppercut
08-05-2005, 12:51 PM
The Ace on the river doesn't seem to scare the villian, so it's pretty obvious he wasn't raising the turn with top pair. Unless he has AJo, I don't see how you are ahead after the river. Fold and conserve your remaining chips. 530 is still a lot at level 1.

Matt R.
08-05-2005, 12:57 PM
I fold the river. Your set is almost always beat here, and your stack is really hurting if you call and are wrong.

durron597
08-05-2005, 01:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I fold the river. Your set is almost always beat here, and your stack is really hurting if you call and are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you joking? He never has AJ here?

Matt R.
08-05-2005, 01:06 PM
Not often enough for me to call. I don't see AJ slowplaying that flop, or raising AFTER the 3rd heart hits on the turn. It's possible, but I still fold.

junkmail3
08-05-2005, 01:18 PM
Wow, the advice in the second half of this post is terrible.

I don't think you can fold this hand. Ever. Period(.)

I would be inclined to push the turn raise. (that's about a pot raise, right?)

If he has the flush already, you have 10 outs. You're likly going to have your money in the pot by the end of the hand anyway. Why not take a stab at taking it down now, or giving 2:1 to the flush draw?

I've seen plenty of 4 flushes play this hand this way at the 55s (and call all in on the turn).

ldavidjm
08-05-2005, 01:20 PM
I'm all for playing aggressively, but I fold this river as well. AJ check calling a flop like that?? And then turning up the heat when a flush card comes? And there really aren't many likely raggedy two pairs he could have because he is limping UTG so that's almost certainly out as well. In addition, its much easier to come back from 530 chips where you've still got some time, to desperation with only 230.

gumpzilla
08-05-2005, 01:23 PM
I think I push the turn when I'm raised. I'm unlikely to fold the river to an unknown at these buyins, and if he's beating me he's going to bet again, while I don't think he's going to fire another barrel if checked to on the river (EDIT: when he's behind). If I push the turn, I'm defending myself against big naked hearts and I'll not infrequently get looked up by an AJ that thinks I'm trying to bluff the flush. Since you have boat outs as well, I like a turn push. As is, call the river.

Matt R.
08-05-2005, 01:29 PM
You really think he'd call the flop bet with a backdoor flush draw? Then raise someone that has bet into him twice already with 4 to a flush? Then bet only HALF the pot on the river -- a bet that clearly wants to be called -- with a busted flush draw?

pooh74
08-05-2005, 01:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You really think he'd call the flop bet with a backdoor flush draw? Then raise someone that has bet into him twice already with 4 to a flush? Then bet only HALF the pot on the river -- a bet that clearly wants to be called -- with a busted flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes...among other possibilities.

junkmail3
08-05-2005, 01:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You really think he'd call the flop bet with a backdoor flush draw? Then raise someone that has bet into him twice already with 4 to a flush? Then bet only HALF the pot on the river -- a bet that clearly wants to be called -- with a busted flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes...among other possibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

One had you could think about:
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Matt R.
08-05-2005, 01:38 PM
I'd need a read that he's a terrible player then, for me to be willing to make a call that would cripple me. Because even a bad player *usually* has the flush here (I think we can at least agree on that?). Also, I still might fold because a player this bad will give me his chips later anytime I'm in a pot with him -- and I won't have to be hoping he doesn't have the flush.

schwza
08-05-2005, 01:39 PM
i folded. here was my rationale...

that would be a very strange play for AJ to smooth call the flop with one to act on an uber draw-heavy board. the rest of the hand is pretty consistent with AJ though.

it would be a very normal way to play A /images/graemlins/heart.gifx /images/graemlins/heart.gif. there are more nut flush hands out there than AJ's (not to mention non-nut flushes, 99, etc), and few hands besides AJ that i beat that would ever take this line.

in the end, i used the rough rule of thumb that i often rely on:

- how surprised would i be if he had a flush? not surprised at all.

- how surprised would i be if i won this hand by calling? pretty surprised.

that last bit is obviously not an argument - just wanted to explain the thought process.

as for pushing the turn, i think gump makes some good points. i'm pretty unhappy to be folding the river, so committing to losing all my chips against a flush is not a disaster. against KxJx or AxJx i want to get the chips in on the turn. a heart river will make villain check behind. a blank river will leave me in a tough spot, where i'm likely going to miss value or fold a winner. against either hand with a heart i'd love to be all-in on the turn.

so i think pushing the turn is probably best, but once i get to the river, i think a fold is correct, or at least close.

Matt R.
08-05-2005, 01:42 PM
This seems like the only logical possible hand he could have here that you beat. But I still think he raises the flop with top pair (at least if he's going to raise the turn). Either he's a donk and his range is wider, or every other possible holding he has includes 2 hearts.

pooh74
08-05-2005, 01:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd need a read that he's a terrible player then, for me to be willing to make a call that would cripple me. Because even a bad player *usually* has the flush here (I think we can at least agree on that?). Also, I still might fold because a player this bad will give me his chips later anytime I'm in a pot with him -- and I won't have to be hoping he doesn't have the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I replied with this above:



Much of the time. I see villain's line being Ah x, maybe he called the flop bet because he hit his kicker on flop, raised the turn incase a 4th heart came on river, and hit 2 pair on river so value bet it.

Ah 9x? This is a 20? I just dont see how people play cards seeing monsters all of the time. If I played every hand at the lower limits worrying everytime there are 3 flush cards on board, I woul;d make a lot less $...sometimes I am wrong, I just dont see how this case is special. The flop call? I think hero is ahead more than 50% of the time on this river.

gumpzilla
08-05-2005, 01:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This seems like the only logical possible hand he could have here that you beat. But I still think he raises the flop with top pair (at least if he's going to raise the turn).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll pretty frequently play TPTK on this board pretty much the same way as the villain played his hand, though I'd probably raise a little more on the turn.

durron597
08-05-2005, 01:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I'll pretty frequently play TPTK on this board pretty much the same way as the villain played his hand, though I'd probably raise a little more on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ESPECIALLY if you have the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Matt R.
08-05-2005, 01:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]

- how surprised would i be if he had a flush? not surprised at all.

- how surprised would i be if i won this hand by calling? pretty surprised.

that last bit is obviously not an argument - just wanted to explain the thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it actually is an argument -- and a good one. You're just estimating (correctly, IMO), the probability that he has the flush vs. some other hand that you beat.

I'm surprised you're convinced pushing the turn is correct. After villain's line, you think it's likely he has the flush -- correct (I assume this is true after what you said)? Then why put all your chips in when you're drawing to 10 outs, when you can get a cheap river to try and fill up? I, personally, like the way you played the hand.

adios
08-05-2005, 01:54 PM
When you bet on the turn what did you think he'd raise you with? If you held out the strong possibility that he made a flush on the turn you should have checked. If you weren't sure I think it's a fair to say that your bet was informational in that his raise against a 3 flush should tell you something. If you thought there was a good chance he'd bluff at it, check and call. He's offering you around 3-1 on the river and I'm fairly sure that you're beat here but it's a judgement call as to how often. I realize you don't know a thing about this player most likely and I have to think that from the way you played the hand you should fold on the river. I don't think your opponent will take a free card with a lot of outs very often on the turn i.e. the money is going in whether you check or not. If a four flush comes on the river and you're bluffed out so what? The pot is small and it's early.

junkmail3
08-05-2005, 01:55 PM
I didn't know this was a 22. (I didn't know what level it was), but espically at a 22, even up to a 55 I would push the turn. You're ahead way too often. And the games I've been seeing lately ... I just can't let this go, which is what makes pushing the turn the best option.

And if I bust ... ? Well then, I'll have to wait until next week to get that beaded seat cover I've been saving for.

schwza
08-05-2005, 01:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is a 20

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry i forgot to include this earlier. i'm surprised no one asked.

it's a 33.

i think it matter a lot because i'd imagine AJ and KJ limp utg much more at the 11 than the 33.

Matt R.
08-05-2005, 02:01 PM
OK, but wouldn't you play 2 hearts the same way? If not, I'm sure you'll agree most players would -- and I think slowplaying AJ on the flop in this situation is a mistake. But if you assume villain would play AJ the exact same way as the flush draw, it's still more likely he has the flush. On this final board, there are 2*C(3,1) or 9 ways to have AJ (not to mention only 3 ways of having AhJ, which we think is more likely). If UTG limps with Ax of hearts, any 2 suited connectors down to 78h, that's 12+6 = 18 ways of making these hands. It's twice as likely he has the flush. He's BARELY getting the odds to call in that case, and in this ideal scenario, since a call cripples him, I'd still fold.

Edit -- I didn't discount some of the 2 heart hands based on known cards out, so my counts are a little off, but you get the idea (it's still more likely he has the flush). AND -- I miscalculated pot odds in my last sentence, oops. But the flush is still more likely, even though the pot odds are more favorable than what I thought originally (blah! I'm done correcting myself).

mhcmarty
08-05-2005, 02:44 PM
Has the size of the flop bet been discussed? With 2 suited cards and a flopped set, my bet would have been atleast 1.5X the pot. Specially this early.

On the turn, I'd fold or re-raise.

schwza
08-05-2005, 02:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, I'd fold or

[/ QUOTE ]

yuck. i'm getting exactly 3.5:1 on my 3.6:1 shot to fill up. even if i never win without hitting and never make a dime when i do hit, i *barely* don't have odds ot call.