4-8 with 1&2 blinds. Implied odds or fools gold?

[Clarkmeister]

Unlike many (most) posters, I like to drink while playing from time to time. When I do so, I always play in the local 4-8 baby blind games because I can see a lot of flops, and lets face it - poker is more fun when you see a lot of flops. Last night after watching the Illinios basketball game at ESPNZone I walked across the street to Monte Carlo to play some poker and drink a lot of free beer.

The game is great, with 2 maniacs and several loose calling stations. The remaining players are typical overtight straightforward locals. Super game with not a single good postflop player.

Now in these games with their $2 and $1 blind structure, I complete the SB with any two cards. Your implied odds are simply huge. But how low can you go on the button in a game like this for $2 when the blinds on your left never ever raise preflop? When they are all readable postflop? When they are all awful postflop? When they all will pay you off postflop?

The hand:

2 maniacs and 2 calling stations limp for $2 to me on the button. I announce that I am "defending my button" and call with 94o. Blinds come along. 7 to the flop.

Flop - [9s 6s 5h] Checked to me, I bet, SB and BB call, Maniac raises, I 3-bet, BB calls, Maniac calls.

Turn - Qc Checked to me, I bet, both call.

River - Ac Checked to me, I bet, maniac calls, my hand is good.

Good preflop call or no? Good play or no? I've got another, more extreme example but I'll save that one til I get some feedback on this one.

[Bob T.]

When you said fools gold, where you referring to the implied odds, or the beer? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Lets see, you put in $2 preflop, and you managed to win about 44 after rake and tip. Assuming you can get away from 94 if the flop misses you /forums/images/icons/cool.gif , that has to be reasonable implied odds, especially when you add in the other factors, you will be making yourself much more unpredictable, and they now 'might' know that you will go three bets on the flop with a pair of nines no kicker, so you can go three bets on the flop with bigger hands and they might call you suspecting that you have a pair of nines this time also.

I would say that for you at least, the play has value.

[Louie Landale]

When the forum first opened we had an exchange (in fact a heated exchaged) about the merits of filling in the SB with 52 in this game. It was close, but worth it. The argument presumed, however, that you needed to flop two pair or better to continue.

I think this hand is a bit of an aboration, since flopping a pair of 9s with no kicker is NOT supposed to win THAT often. While you may have played this hand briliantly against THIS maniac, next time you are going to get beat and lose quite a bit.

Your "implied odds" are good for hands that will generally WIN when you make them, such as a flush or top pair. Otherwise, even against maniacs, your implied odds just aren't that good since you will end up investing a lot with hands that end up losing.

"Super game with not a single good postflop player." Apparently there may have been one, in spite of the beer. Unless of course there were 3 maniacs...

- Louie /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[AceHigh]

"I like to drink while playing from time to time"

I like to think of it as playing while drinking from time to time.

"But how low can you go on the button "

Probably any 2 suited or any decent connecting cards without a 2 or 3 in them. I think 94o is maybe a little too low. Maybe not if you know the pot won't be raised.

Isn't this the game when you can make a $6 raise, preflop? If so, you should probably tighten up a little more.

Do you think announcing you are defending your button encourages others to do so? And if so are they playing more correctly or less correctly? They'd have to be very loose for it to make them play worse wouldn't it?

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

bravo,tremendous.....i see you there tonite...luv tghose games.....

[rharless]

If 94o doesn't have a name yet, I hereby nominate it to be "the Clarky"

/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Net Warrior]

If anyone else here posted this hand he'd be snickered at. You can't possibly get away with post flop play like this no matter what the game. This is just poor poker.

[rharless]

Not sure about making that pre-flop "rag alert!" button call on a regular basis -- which I take it is what you are asking. If you can get in for $2 and you can basically play pinball against the maniacs, then it seems to be marginally considerable. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

I doubt I would have called preflop out of rote discipline, but had I done so, I would have checked the river, because I wouldn't ever imagine that if I was called on the river that I'd be good.

To your other point on the huge implied odds -- 1-4-8-8 or Boulder Station's 6-12 game have always treated me well.

rh

[Clarkmeister]

"Probably any 2 suited or any decent connecting cards without a 2 or 3 in them. I think 94o is maybe a little too low. Maybe not if you know the pot won't be raised. "

On my button and cutoff there was virtually 0% chance of the pots getting raised. Neither player on my right raised preflop once the whole night.

Any 2 suited is without a doubt playable, and I go that low even in CO1 when the games have this postflop texture. I think the question is where is the line for offsuit garbage when you only have to pay 1/4 of a big bet to see the flop and have position on atrocious postflop players.

"Isn't this the game when you can make a $6 raise, preflop? If so, you should probably tighten up a little more."

I play very tight (OK, not very tight, but way tighter than the others in the game. Pairs, suited aces and suited paint) in EP for this reason. Once the threat of a preflop raise is gone, coupled with position, I loosen way up in LP.

"Do you think announcing you are defending your button encourages others to do so? And if so are they playing more correctly or less correctly? They'd have to be very loose for it to make them play worse wouldn't "

2 things. One, saying stuff like that is just who I am at the table when I'm there to have fun. Its great for the image as well. I rasied preflop with the following hands yesterday:

AK (5 times)
AQ (once)
JJ (once)

That was it. And of those 6 pots, 3 were capped preflop, LOLOL. So despite being a very tight preflop raiser, I was able to get insane action on my hands. I think calling attention to myself and hands like 94o that I get to show down is a big reason why.

Secondly, I want them to see the flop. I can't make money off them postflop if they fold before the flop. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Clarkmeister]

"If anyone else here posted this hand he'd be snickered at. "

Probabaly true. Openly mocked might be a better term than shickered. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif That's OK. Flame away, I think this post raises a legitimate question and emphasises an important concept. If I'm wrong, then let me have it. No different than anyone else.


"You can't possibly get away with post flop play like this no matter what the game. This is just poor poker."

What is wrong with my postflop play? I have zero doubt I have the best hand on the flop. Maniac would bet with a 9 100% of the time. I think I actually played the hand postflop very well. Please point out where you think my postflop play was flawed, I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning. Remember, I was drunk and in Super Genius mode so maybe you're right. But at least say *why* it was poor, otherwise why post a response at all?

[Clarkmeister]

"I doubt I would have called preflop out of rote discipline, but had I done so, I would have checked the river, because I wouldn't ever imagine that if I was called on the river that I'd be good."

I bet the river for 2 reasons. 1. I was certain I was ahead of the maniac and would get called. 2. By now I had to account for the slim possibility that the 3rd player had a better 9 instead of a flush/straight draw and thought I might be able to get him to fold it with a bet into 2 scary overcards and the thread of an overcall behind him.

[Clarkmeister]

"When the forum first opened we had an exchange (in fact a heated exchaged) about the merits of filling in the SB with 52 in this game. It was close, but worth it. The argument presumed, however, that you needed to flop two pair or better to continue."

I used to think it was close. But when the game is this good, I think folding any 2 cards for 1/8th a big bet is a large mistake.

"I think this hand is a bit of an aboration, since flopping a pair of 9s with no kicker is NOT supposed to win THAT often."

True, but that's the beauty of position, no? And I think that's the crux of my question. Namely, if its correct to call for 1/8th of a big bet with any two cards despite the worst position, can't you play some really really really ugly stuff for 1/4th a big bet with the best position and against awful players?

"While you may have played this hand briliantly against THIS maniac, next time you are going to get beat and lose quite a bit."

Maybe, but I was dead certain he didn't have a 9. He would bet the flop 100% of the time with a 9. Isn't knowing when to fold for 1 bet on the flop and knowing when to go to war part of why you can play crap of all sorts in LP? If he bets the flop, I fold.

"Your "implied odds" are good for hands that will generally WIN when you make them, such as a flush or top pair. Otherwise, even against maniacs, your implied odds just aren't that good since you will end up investing a lot with hands that end up losing."

This is certainly a factor. But as long as you are racking up that theoretical profit on every postflop decision, you still recoup that dinky $2 investment awful quickly.

Let me phrase this a different way. Sklansky says in a 3 chip 2 chip mid limit game, you essentially complete the small blind with anything. So against mid limit players its correct to invest 1/6th BB with the worst position. Doesn't it follow that with the best position against retards you could pay 1/4 a BB with essentially anything? Maybe you throw away the bottom 10%.

" "Super game with not a single good postflop player." Apparently there may have been one, in spite of the beer. Unless of course there were 3 maniacs..."

I actually think I played fairly well this session. See my response to Ace High about my preflop raising. I was far from maniacal, though my image certainly was a bit Caroesque. Of course, when you get dealt mediocre amounts of premium cards for a 6 hour session, not a lot you can do as far as raising preflop in a game like this. Anyhoo, thanks for the compliment. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Clarkmeister]

Uston already named Q4o the Clarkmeister about a year and a half ago. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[Clarkmeister]

"When you said fools gold, where you referring to the implied odds, or the beer?"

LOL, definitely the implied odds. No disappointment with beer. It always delivers as promised.

[Clarkmeister]

I add this hand simply as a no-content "good beat" story because 1. It is fun and 2. I hope it re-illustrates how bad my opponents were. Again, this is your final warning that there is nothing of value in the below post other than "I really had fun this hand and want to share."

Maniac straddles. Same maniac as the hand above. He only raises his straddle with suited blackjack hands and big pairs though. Anyways, 2 limpers to me on the button, I pay the full $4 with 67o, SB and BB come along and maniac thankfully checks. 6 to the flop.

Flop 4h 5d Ks. Beautiful open ender on a rainbow flop. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls to MP who checkraises the field. I call, tight SB calls, BB calls, maniac calls. 5 to the turn.

Turn. 8s. I have the nuts but a spade draw is now possible. Checked to MP who bets, I raise, SB cold calls, maniac cold calls, MP reraises. I cap. Everyone calls. 4 to the river.

River. 9c. I am drunk and blind and literally stand up to peer at the card from my seat at the end of the table. Nope, not a spade. not a board pair. I count in my head. 8....9....(JT)..K....cool, JT doesn't stretch. I still have the nuts.

They check to me. I bet. SB now raises out of nowhere. Maniac clold calls, MP coldcalls, I 3-bet and they all call.

I scoop. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

How's that for implied odds and postflop retards?

[Billy LTL]

Good preflop call or no?

Very good if you are sure the beer isn't making the game look rosier than it might possibly be. I tend to tighten up when drinking and playing simply because my optimism increases with every glass. But that's just me. Back to the game.

I regularly play against lineups similar to this and will call or raise from late position with all kinds of crap. I think I have an even greater reason to do so than you, Clarkmeister, as my opponents are regulars, I generally know their rhythms and patterns (and tells) better than I know my own. So having said that...yes call your 9-4 on the button, especially with that blind structure.

Good play or no?

If you hadn't played it exactly as you did then you shouldn't ever get involved with such a trashy hand. That's where so many people get it wrong -- they play garbage and then don't know what to do when they catch a piece of the flop. Those two big bets you made on the end earned you an awful lot of flop-peeks. Billy

[CrackerZack]

I probably would've checked the river which is more of the reason why I shouldn't play trash even with position in a game this sweet. If I was drunk and didn't care, then maybe I would because hell, its only money. I a couple of weekends I'm sure I'll be that guy since we're staying in the Monte Carlo and I enjoy playing and drinking, especially in vegas.

[rharless]

Well, re being sure that maniac is 9-less, and can't beat a nine - you definitely have strong hand reading skills.

I remember at StarDust you raised TT from the SB (maybe BB) preflop, flop was K-rag-rag and you bet it through to the river with one caller to the end. I was mildly surprised you didn't have a K, but I was just stunned that your customer didn't have a K AND couldn't beat TT.

Regarding the slim possibility the trapped caller had a better 9 and not a flush draw -- my add'l worry would be they had a Q- or A-high flush draw. But I assume you could tell this was not a possibility either.