What is two pair good for in limit Omaha Hi ?

Hi. I see two pair take down an occasional pot so should I be betting a top and bottom two pair in the right situations ?

For example:

Focus on post flop here. I know I ROYALLY messed up the preflop street.

I have A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

It is capped preflop between 5 players. Yes, I called every raise. Not good.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif pot= $10

Hero bets .50
BB calls
EP1 calls
MP calls
LP calls

Should I bet here because the pot is $10 and I could possibly take it down and have the best hand or should I not even bother ? The pot was so big so I bet. If the pot was $4 , though maybe my decision would be different and a check would be better ? Also, I saw the flop against 4 others and not 7 players so I figure my odds were better. Thanks.

BTW, I ended up checking the turn and river and lost to a flush on the river.

[lucas9000]

i don't play limit omaha, but i can tell you that you have NO chance of taking this down with a bet on the flop. your opponents are getting 20+:1 odds on your bet. considering the preflop action, that board likely gives at least one or two players draws, so unless they're complete chimps they're not folding when getting 20+:1, even if their draw is totally mediocre.

[ QUOTE ]
Should I bet here because the pot is $10 and I could possibly take it down and have the best hand or should I not even bother ? The pot was so big so I bet. If the pot was $4 , though maybe my decision would be different and a check would be better ?

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to read theory of poker. your .50 bet is more likely to take down the small $4 pot you mentioned that the $10 pot, contrary to what you said. this is really a poker fundamental.

i would check this flop, and call one bet. if this post came off as overly harsh i didn't mean it, i just want to emphasize that you should read theory of poker and get some fundamentals down.

I have read TOP. Well, up to just pass the Semi-bluffing chapters which is about 80 % complete. I don't like reading.

I hear you , though but what is the point of giving people infinite odds ?

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
though but what is the point of giving people infinite odds ?

[/ QUOTE ]

your bet there is -ev. reread top.

[IronDragon1]

Fold the flop

STOP PLAYING LIMIT OMAHA!

Why stop playing limit omaha ? If you know how to play, its major +EV . Where else online are you going to find a .50/1 limit game with 65 % seeing the flop ?

[sy_or_bust]

I think he is referring to major holes in your Limit Hi game. If you aren't against at least one big set and a flush draw on the flop, I'd be shocked. You have a great Hi/Lo hand, but unfortunately that doesn't matter.

leading the flop + reading TOP = /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[IronDragon1]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I think he is referring to major holes in your Limit Hi game. If you aren't against at least one big set and a flush draw on the flop, I'd be shocked. You have a great Hi/Lo hand, but unfortunately that doesn't matter.

leading the flop + reading TOP = /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes-the OP seems (like many when they first start playing any form of Omaha) stuck on a holdem-esque ranking of hands.

But limit omaha is terrible terrible torture and shouldn't be played by anyone for reason other than to torture onesself.

I use hutchison.

[ChuckyB]

What's wrong with limit Omaha? Too many draws make no one hand much of a favorite--thus everyone sees the river?

[Tom Bayes]

I think your hand is a 27 pointer according to Hutchison's Omaha Hi point system. He says you need 28 to call. In any case, this is a very marginal hand to play preflop and you are playing it to hit a straight or flush, not two pair (esp. top &amp; bottom pair).

The chance that aces &amp; fours will win a showdown umimproved in low stakes limit Omaha is pretty small. I'd be checking that flop and hoping to hit something better on the turn.

[willmay3]

Dear BigAsses:

Regarding this specific hand:

1. As a general rule, Top and Bottom pair is a VERY marginal hand that gets even more marginal the more players that are in. Heads up it is very solid, against two it is like middle pair in HE, against 3 its like bottom pair in HE, and against 4 or more it is similar to 4 high in HE /images/graemlins/smile.gif

2. As I said, Top and Bottom pair is a marginal hand ESPECIALLY with 5 players seeing the flop and ESPECIALLY with the flop texture as it is. The reason being that the most obvious hands for people to be betting in this matter are:

KKxx
AAxx
4 Broadway cards including the AK which yeilds top two pair.

So, you are probably in world of hurt at this point. Betting this flop would be obscene as there is absolutely NO WAY you have the best hand at this point.

3. Even in some parallel Universe where you DO have the best hand, you are easily outdrawn on this flop and could even be a statistical underdog against a big wrap such as:

T :h: J :h: Q :c: 9 :c:

That is a very likely hand to have capped the betting with.

4. Someone might argue that with the pot so big, though, that you should check and call 1, AND ONLY 1, bet. This is because it is about 15 to 1 to hit 1 of the non heart 3's and the pot is laying you 20 to 1. If you hit the three you have the nuts.

They believe that the other 25% give makes up for the fact that you are highly susceptible to redraws. By that I mean that you are VERY likely against a set and some sort of flush draw, and perhaps the same or better straight draw. This last one seems very unlikely to me, but one must consider it.

However, I think that this thinking is VERY flawed when we consider what the turn will look like.

Even if you hit your miracle three, with one card to come I think you must now dodge the following cards.

The other 2 Aces (Let's not kid ourselves and think this gives us some chance at winning the pot)
The other 3 Kings
The other 9 hearts
The 4 J's
The 4 Q's
The 4 T's
The other 2 2's
The other 2 3's
The other 2 4's (Let's not kid ourselves and think this gives us some chance at winning the pot)
The other 3 5's
The 4 6's

This is 39 of the cards left of the 46 unseen cards in the deck! You could draw your miracle and STILL be a 5.25 to 1 Underdog.

Now, true, all those outs are probably not out there against you. But, it is not so wild to think that 30 of them would be. In fact, it might even be probable if 3 or more people call on the flop. Add to this that you are VERY likely behind right now, you will probably be behind on the turn EVEN if you hit your card, you may be tied on the turn EVEN if you hit your card, and you are VERY unlikely to improve after you hit your miracle while your opponents are very unlikely NOT to improve.

It doesn't get any worse than this in Omaha.

Having made the mistake of calling a capped preflop bet it is wise now to cut your losses and just fold.

Regarding, Limit Omaha in general and whether you should play, I'm going to disagree with a couple of posters here. I think this is a very fine game, ESPECIALLY at the limits you are playing, because:

A. The swings are definitely bigger in this game than any other because of how close the hands run in value and because of the MANY, MANY redraws after the flop. You go from Favorite to BIG Dog very quickly in this game.

However, what better place for the novice than here in the .25/.50 land. I mean a big swing is like $40. Who can't afford that short term?

2. Long term, assuming you are a competent player who plays solid cards solidly, you will DESTROY any game that routinely has 75% of the players seeing the flop. By building hands like Top set, Top Two pair, Nut flush, and big wrap around straight draws, you will, about twice an hour, have the entire table drawing very nearly dead against you. True, you will get sucked out on, but there you go. It happens.

There is no other game, limit, where there are so many horrendous players as Limit Omaha.

3. That said, if you are calling a capped preflop betting with the hand you describe above, then you might want to reconsider playing this game for now /images/graemlins/smile.gif You MAY be the fish, as it were. I'd suggest getting Bob Ciaffone's Omaha Hold 'Em Poker and follow his recommendations religiously.

Just some thoughts. Let me know, all of you, if you think I am off base here. But, I think I'm on pretty solid footing.