Sheffield = Clown [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 10:12 AM

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I don't get it. Who is he talking about is the leader on the team if it's not Jeter? Maybe Matsui but I don't think he's been there long enough. Unless his ego is so big he thinks he's the leader on the team.

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Of course his ego is big enough to think he's the leader of the team. He certainly isn't referring to Matsui. Sheffield has always had a chip on his shoulder and has worn out his welcome wherever he has played. That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

CollinEstes

08-05-2005, 10:27 AM

I wouldn't doubt it if he was talking about himself but when I think about who the leader of the Yankees is I think Posada just as much as I think Jeter.

Catchers are natural leaders.

Matt Williams

08-05-2005, 10:33 AM

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I wouldn't doubt it if he was talking about himself but when I think about who the leader of the Yankees is I think Posada just as much as I think Jeter.

Catchers are natural leaders.

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True, but he said other teams know it is up to them to stop this one guy meaning he is a major force at the plate or on the mound. I would put Bernie or Tino up there as well.( meaning a leader of the Yankees, not at the plate.) Heh, maybe he was talking about Womack or Embree.

Dale

08-05-2005, 11:38 AM

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I don't get it. Who is he talking about is the leader on the team if it's not Jeter? Maybe Matsui but I don't think he's been there long enough. Unless his ego is so big he thinks he's the leader on the team.

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Of course his ego is big enough to think he's the leader of the team. He certainly isn't referring to Matsui. Sheffield has always had a chip on his shoulder and has worn out his welcome wherever he has played. That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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He's talking about A-Rod. Wait and see. He's got published comments from a few weeks ago citing A-Rod. No, I can't find them.

DougOzzzz

08-05-2005, 11:53 AM

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That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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What about Giambi? Best hitter on the team this year.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 12:08 PM

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That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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What about Giambi? Best hitter on the team this year.

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Um...no. Giambi has been the best hitter on the team for the last month. His first 3 months were unmentionable.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 12:09 PM

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I don't get it. Who is he talking about is the leader on the team if it's not Jeter? Maybe Matsui but I don't think he's been there long enough. Unless his ego is so big he thinks he's the leader on the team.

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Of course his ego is big enough to think he's the leader of the team. He certainly isn't referring to Matsui. Sheffield has always had a chip on his shoulder and has worn out his welcome wherever he has played. That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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He's talking about A-Rod. Wait and see. He's got published comments from a few weeks ago citing A-Rod. No, I can't find them.

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Sheffield is certainly not talking about A-Rod as being the leader of the team.

Boris

08-05-2005, 12:16 PM

lol. Sheffield is funny too. funny in a different kind of way.

DougOzzzz

08-05-2005, 12:26 PM

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That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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What about Giambi? Best hitter on the team this year.

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Um...no. Giambi has been the best hitter on the team for the last month. His first 3 months were unmentionable.

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Over the course of the season, Giambi has been the best hitter on the team. This is not up for debate.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 12:32 PM

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That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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What about Giambi? Best hitter on the team this year.

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Um...no. Giambi has been the best hitter on the team for the last month. His first 3 months were unmentionable.

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Over the course of the season, Giambi has been the best hitter on the team. This is not up for debate.

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What's not up for debate is the fact that you must have been in a coma during the months of April, May, and June.

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 12:34 PM

I love it. I wish more ballplayers would do [censored] like this. I don't know, people ask for guys being open, and then guys like Sheff and Schill start saying what's on their minds... and then people start hating them?

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 12:35 PM

Giambi batted .310 in June, you dumb jackfuck.

andyfox

08-05-2005, 12:40 PM

Nothing wrong with Sheff and Schill speaking their minds. Like you, I like it. But also nothing wrong with people talking about what they didn't like about what they said.

When Jeter was the leader of the team, they won six pennants and four World Series. Now that Sheff (?) is the leader, they're three games out of the playoffs.

I'd rather they had another starting pitcher than a team leader.

DougOzzzz

08-05-2005, 01:11 PM

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That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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What about Giambi? Best hitter on the team this year.

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Um...no. Giambi has been the best hitter on the team for the last month. His first 3 months were unmentionable.

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Over the course of the season, Giambi has been the best hitter on the team. This is not up for debate.

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What's not up for debate is the fact that you must have been in a coma during the months of April, May, and June.

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We're not talking about consistency. And you're a moron for even mentioning June. Only Matsui was better than Giambi in June.

technologic

08-05-2005, 01:41 PM

there are two members on the lineup who beat giambi now in HR, RBI and avg. wtf are you talking about.

mmbt0ne

08-05-2005, 01:43 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I wouldn't doubt it if he was talking about himself but when I think about who the leader of the Yankees is I think Posada just as much as I think Jeter.

Catchers are natural leaders.

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I think Jeter is the catcher.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050622/i/r3318410604.jpg

CollinEstes

08-05-2005, 01:45 PM

Nice dude.

Next thing you know we are going to see Sheffield walking around with his back pocket out and Jeter holding on to it.

Los Feliz Slim

08-05-2005, 01:56 PM

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I think Jeter is the catcher.

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vnh

MrFeelNothin

08-05-2005, 02:15 PM

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there are two members on the lineup who beat giambi now in HR, RBI and avg. wtf are you talking about.

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OPS.

sublime

08-05-2005, 02:46 PM

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I love it. I wish more ballplayers would do [censored] like this. I don't know, people ask for guys being open, and then guys like Sheff and Schill start saying what's on their minds... and then people start hating them?

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i wish more ballplayers were open, and schilling does like to talk. however, i don't recall him ever bashing teammates (not calling somebody the leader of the team is a slight bash) and the organization he plays for in one interview.

gary sheffield should be put to sleep before he bites someone.

imported_The Vibesman

08-05-2005, 03:18 PM

I think Schilling actually spends a good amount of time bashing his teammates to the press but hides behind being "an anonymous Red Sox player." I think he is the basis for a lot of the negative comments about Manny, for example, and I think he had a lot of negative quotes about Nomar when he was still here as well.

For the most part I wish athletes would just shut the hell up. I'm no more interested in what they have to say than celebrities, either their opinions on world issues or their behind-the-scenes gossip. Maybe I'm spoiled by hockey players, who for the most part give stock answers, always stick up for their teammates and coaches and say the right thing about the fans and the franchise. I wish ballplayers were more like that. I like watching them play ball, not spout off. Actually, that's one of the many many things I love about Manny Ramirez, I have never ever heard a direct quote from him that reflected negatively on anybody.

Sheffield has also admitted he tanked plays in an attempt to get himself traded, and earlier this season stated that if the Yankees traded him, he would make himself a clubhouse cancer on his new team. I generally think he's a jerk whenever he opens his mouth.

sublime

08-05-2005, 03:44 PM

very good post.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 04:14 PM

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Giambi batted .310 in June, you dumb jackfuck.

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Joan of Arcadia, you are the biggest jackmeister on this board. Yeah, Giambi batted .310 in June with a wopping 1 hr and 9 rbi's.The fact that he basically produced nothing the first 3 months of the season is obvious. Go crunch some numbers, you pompous jackass.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 04:18 PM

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That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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What about Giambi? Best hitter on the team this year.

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Um...no. Giambi has been the best hitter on the team for the last month. His first 3 months were unmentionable.

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Over the course of the season, Giambi has been the best hitter on the team. This is not up for debate.

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What's not up for debate is the fact that you must have been in a coma during the months of April, May, and June.

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We're not talking about consistency. And you're a moron for even mentioning June. Only Matsui was better than Giambi in June.

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Oz Man, come out of your stupor. A-Rod batted .337 in June, with 3 hr's and 17 ribbies. Jeter, .317 and 15 ribbies. Just 2 who outperformed Giambi with the bat during June.

JoePro

08-05-2005, 04:18 PM

Oh boy... That pic is too funny.

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 04:45 PM

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Giambi batted .310 in June, you dumb jackfuck.

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Joan of Arcadia, you are the biggest jackmeister on this board. Yeah, Giambi batted .310 in June with a wopping 1 hr and 9 rbi's.The fact that he basically produced nothing the first 3 months of the season is obvious. Go crunch some numbers, you pompous jackass.

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It's only obvious to people with their heads stuck up their asses. Oh no, only 9 RBI! Maybe it's because he was batting at the bottom of the order.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 04:57 PM

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Giambi batted .310 in June, you dumb jackfuck.

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Joan of Arcadia, you are the biggest jackmeister on this board. Yeah, Giambi batted .310 in June with a wopping 1 hr and 9 rbi's.The fact that he basically produced nothing the first 3 months of the season is obvious. Go crunch some numbers, you pompous jackass.

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It's only obvious to people with their heads stuck up their asses. Oh no, only 9 RBI! Maybe it's because he was batting at the bottom of the order.

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Damn, 9 rbi's in a month batting in the seventh and eight hole! He did that every month he'd be on pace for 54 for a season. Awesome, even batting at the bottom of the order. All your useless stats has your brain scrambled, Joannie.
Go get laid.

08-05-2005, 04:58 PM

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Giambi batted .310 in June, you dumb jackfuck.

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Joan of Arcadia, you are the biggest jackmeister on this board. Yeah, Giambi batted .310 in June with a wopping 1 hr and 9 rbi's.The fact that he basically produced nothing the first 3 months of the season is obvious. Go crunch some numbers, you pompous jackass.

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The fact that you rely so much on batting average in making statistical arguments about baseball shows your ignorance.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 05:03 PM

Have you read the thread ? I'm refuting Joannie's argument that he had a productive June just because he had a .310 batting average.

sublime

08-05-2005, 05:11 PM

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there are two members on the lineup who beat giambi now in HR, RBI and avg. wtf are you talking about.

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wow! RBI's mean dick, the two guys with more HR's have more than 100 plate appearances than him and batting average is moronic to bring up when you consider Giambis OBP is 30 pts higher than his nearest competitor on the team.

Now, He may not be the best player considering his missing plate appearances, but PER plate appearance he has been their best hitter. PERIOD. saying other wise is a FALSE.

sublime

08-05-2005, 05:12 PM

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That being said, he is the last hitter any Yankee opponent wants to see at the plate in late innings, and that includes A-Rod, Jeter, and Matsui.

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What about Giambi? Best hitter on the team this year.

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Um...no. Giambi has been the best hitter on the team for the last month. His first 3 months were unmentionable.

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Over the course of the season, Giambi has been the best hitter on the team. This is not up for debate.

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What's not up for debate is the fact that you must have been in a coma during the months of April, May, and June.

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We're not talking about consistency. And you're a moron for even mentioning June. Only Matsui was better than Giambi in June.

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Oz Man, come out of your stupor. A-Rod batted .337 in June, with 3 hr's and 17 ribbies. Jeter, .317 and 15 ribbies. Just 2 who outperformed Giambi with the bat during June.

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its 2005. please stop using BA and RBIS when discussing a players offensive worth when OBP and SLG% are readily available.

sublime

08-05-2005, 05:17 PM

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Have you read the thread ? I'm refuting Joannie's argument that he had a productive June just because he had a .310 batting average.

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June OPS

Matsui- 1.165
Giambi- .905
Jeter- .903
Arod- .888
Cano- .863
Cujo- .789

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 05:19 PM

Even when he was struggling Giambi's OBP was high, he never lost his eye and still got his walks. That's to his credit. But Giambi has not been the Yanks best hitter this year.He has been their best hitter for the last month. Any manager or pitcher in his right mind would rather face Giambi instead of Sheffield, Matsui, or A-Rod.

tdarko

08-05-2005, 05:26 PM

someone needs to say something to get some fire in their belly, maybe he might wake up a sleeping giant. its been done before.

sublime

08-05-2005, 05:27 PM

Any manager or pitcher in his right mind would rather face Giambi instead of Sheffield, Matsui, or A-Rod.

right now? no.

april/may? yes. all of last season? yes. which again leads back to the origin of this latest debate. he went from being kevin millar of 05 to barry bonds of 03 in a month at the age of 34, WITH a history of steriod usage. i mean cmon.....

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 05:36 PM

Listen, I'm a Yankee fan and I'm glad Giambi looks like he is back. But he's been on fire for a month. For the season he has not been the Yanks best hitter. Sheffield is hitting something like .390 with RISP. Matsui is one of the best money hitters in baseball. And yes RBI's do mean something. Gary Sheffield is a run producer, has been his entire career. Giambi used to be up until 2003 and it looks like he is back. Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

Matt Williams

08-05-2005, 05:50 PM

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Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

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Exactly. Sheffroid and Matsui (A-Rod too) have been productive all season, Giambi has not. In order for Torre to trust Giambi, I think Giambi has to do this for another few weeks or so. If he continues to do this, I think Giambi gets put higher up in the batting order. But if Giambi is really back, it will be hard to stop the Yankee line up if they make the playoffs.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 05:56 PM

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Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

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Exactly. Sheffroid and Matsui (A-Rod too) have been productive all season, Giambi has not. In order for Torre to trust Giambi, I think Giambi has to do this for another few weeks or so. If he continues to do this, I think Giambi gets put higher up in the batting order. But if Giambi is really back, it will be hard to stop the Yankee line up if they make the playoffs.

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Whenever Torre has been interviewed post game for the last month, since Giambi has been on fire, he has been very deliberate in his praise of Giambi. He is encouraged and praises all the hard work Giambi has put in to get back to where he was. But you're right, 1 month does not make a season and Torre knows this. If Giambi does sustain this their lineup is very formidable.But some of the comments on this board stating Giambi has been the Yanks best hitter this year, per at bat, yada yada yada, people are playing with themselves.

sublime

08-05-2005, 06:03 PM

Sheffield is hitting something like .390 with RISP. Matsui is one of the best money hitters in baseball.

another two things that mean next to nothing.

For the season he has not been the Yanks best hitter

per plate appearance he has (meaning when he was on the bench he wasn't) you can argue otherwise till you run out of breathe. you are wrong.

And yes RBI's do mean something.

yes they measure how many runners a batter has driven in. joe morgan told me that. they still mean next to nothing when evaluating a hitters personal prowless. they are a byproduct of things he has control over (OPS) and things he has ZERO control over (men getting on base for him). so why not just eliminate the thing he has zero control over from the argument and focus on whats important?

sublime

08-05-2005, 06:06 PM

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Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

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Exactly. Sheffroid and Matsui (A-Rod too) have been productive all season, Giambi has not. In order for Torre to trust Giambi, I think Giambi has to do this for another few weeks or so. If he continues to do this, I think Giambi gets put higher up in the batting order. But if Giambi is really back, it will be hard to stop the Yankee line up if they make the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever Torre has been interviewed post game for the last month, since Giambi has been on fire, he has been very deliberate in his praise of Giambi. He is encouraged and praises all the hard work Giambi has put in to get back to where he was. But you're right, 1 month does not make a season and Torre knows this. If Giambi does sustain this their lineup is very formidable.But some of the comments on this board stating Giambi has been the Yanks best hitter this year, per at bat, yada yada yada, people are playing with themselves.

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why the focus on one month when it has been shown numerous times that he was the second best hitter (when given the chance) the month of June?

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 06:10 PM

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Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

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Exactly. Sheffroid and Matsui (A-Rod too) have been productive all season, Giambi has not. In order for Torre to trust Giambi, I think Giambi has to do this for another few weeks or so. If he continues to do this, I think Giambi gets put higher up in the batting order. But if Giambi is really back, it will be hard to stop the Yankee line up if they make the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever Torre has been interviewed post game for the last month, since Giambi has been on fire, he has been very deliberate in his praise of Giambi. He is encouraged and praises all the hard work Giambi has put in to get back to where he was. But you're right, 1 month does not make a season and Torre knows this. If Giambi does sustain this their lineup is very formidable.But some of the comments on this board stating Giambi has been the Yanks best hitter this year, per at bat, yada yada yada, people are playing with themselves.

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why the focus on one month when it has been shown numerous times that he was the second best hitter (when given the chance) the month of June?

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Measured by what ?

sublime

08-05-2005, 06:12 PM

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Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

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Exactly. Sheffroid and Matsui (A-Rod too) have been productive all season, Giambi has not. In order for Torre to trust Giambi, I think Giambi has to do this for another few weeks or so. If he continues to do this, I think Giambi gets put higher up in the batting order. But if Giambi is really back, it will be hard to stop the Yankee line up if they make the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever Torre has been interviewed post game for the last month, since Giambi has been on fire, he has been very deliberate in his praise of Giambi. He is encouraged and praises all the hard work Giambi has put in to get back to where he was. But you're right, 1 month does not make a season and Torre knows this. If Giambi does sustain this their lineup is very formidable.But some of the comments on this board stating Giambi has been the Yanks best hitter this year, per at bat, yada yada yada, people are playing with themselves.

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why the focus on one month when it has been shown numerous times that he was the second best hitter (when given the chance) the month of June?

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Measured by what ?

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OPS. the easiest way to measure a players offensive worth.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 06:20 PM

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Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

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Exactly. Sheffroid and Matsui (A-Rod too) have been productive all season, Giambi has not. In order for Torre to trust Giambi, I think Giambi has to do this for another few weeks or so. If he continues to do this, I think Giambi gets put higher up in the batting order. But if Giambi is really back, it will be hard to stop the Yankee line up if they make the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever Torre has been interviewed post game for the last month, since Giambi has been on fire, he has been very deliberate in his praise of Giambi. He is encouraged and praises all the hard work Giambi has put in to get back to where he was. But you're right, 1 month does not make a season and Torre knows this. If Giambi does sustain this their lineup is very formidable.But some of the comments on this board stating Giambi has been the Yanks best hitter this year, per at bat, yada yada yada, people are playing with themselves.

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why the focus on one month when it has been shown numerous times that he was the second best hitter (when given the chance) the month of June?

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Measured by what ?

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OPS. the easiest way to measure a players offensive worth.

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So you're telling me BA with RISP and RBI's are meaningless ?

Matt Williams

08-05-2005, 06:21 PM

[quoteBut some of the comments on this board stating Giambi has been the Yanks best hitter this year, per at bat, yada yada yada, people are playing with themselves.

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I agree. I think it's stupid too. I mean, Giambi still had a high on-base% in April and May. But anyone that watched him play everyday knew he did one of 2 things: strike out or walk. That's why I think on-base % is flawed. I am NOT saying it's a bad stat, just that it has flaws. I am a little league coach and the last 2 years the worse hitter on my team had the highest on base %. Why? Because he was too scared to hit the ball and walked all the time. His batting ave. was .000 and his on-base % was over .400. But he was the LAST player I wanted to see at the plate with a game on the line.

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 06:25 PM

I thought you were the guy that said you had to watch a player to judge them. Why're you using stats? Shouldn't you just say "well, Sheffield LOOKS like the better hitter"?

sublime

08-05-2005, 06:33 PM

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Crunch all the numbers you want. Joe Torre wants Sheffield or Matsui up in a key spot instead of Giambi, and that includes right now.

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Exactly. Sheffroid and Matsui (A-Rod too) have been productive all season, Giambi has not. In order for Torre to trust Giambi, I think Giambi has to do this for another few weeks or so. If he continues to do this, I think Giambi gets put higher up in the batting order. But if Giambi is really back, it will be hard to stop the Yankee line up if they make the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever Torre has been interviewed post game for the last month, since Giambi has been on fire, he has been very deliberate in his praise of Giambi. He is encouraged and praises all the hard work Giambi has put in to get back to where he was. But you're right, 1 month does not make a season and Torre knows this. If Giambi does sustain this their lineup is very formidable.But some of the comments on this board stating Giambi has been the Yanks best hitter this year, per at bat, yada yada yada, people are playing with themselves.

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why the focus on one month when it has been shown numerous times that he was the second best hitter (when given the chance) the month of June?

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Measured by what ?

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OPS. the easiest way to measure a players offensive worth.

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So you're telling me BA with RISP and RBI's are meaningless ?

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BA with RISP is a byproduct of 'clutch' which has been proven to not exist. I already explained why RBI's are inferior to otehr statistics.

OPS>OBP>SLG>HR>AVG>RBI (AVG/RISP doesnt even deserve to be mentioned)

if you want to continue to mine the stats to find situations where you look correct, feel free. you are wrong though.

Triumph36

08-05-2005, 06:33 PM

This is the apparent stat-nerd dogma - RBIs and RISP are meaningless.

I disagree. Giambi has hit a lot of home runs lately, but they've almost all been solo home runs. This is not his fault necessarily, as it can be attributed to the fact that there are weaker hitters after Giambi and he will be pitched around with men on base. Still, it means his home runs are less valuable to the team than other home runs with men on base.

I still think there are merit to both 'flawed' statistics - some famous slugger said recently that they measure themselves by RBIs, which seems more relevant than OPS - two out doubles with no one on in the third inning are worth less than eighth inning singles with two men in scoring position. The problem with RBIs and RISP BA is that they're highly dependent on other variables, while OPS is not. I still think using OPS as the main (or sole) metric is flawed.

sublime

08-05-2005, 06:36 PM

I am a little league coach and the last 2 years the worse hitter on my team had the highest on base %. Why? Because he was too scared to hit the ball and walked all the time. His batting ave. was .000 and his on-base % was over .400. But he was the LAST player I wanted to see at the plate with a game on the line.

OBP > than AVG

its NOT close. he is probably one of the BETTER offensive players on your team. he sounds like the perfect leadoff man.

sublime

08-05-2005, 06:38 PM

This is not his fault necessarily

if by necessarily, you mean not his fault at ALL i agree. how the hell can you blame him for his teamates not being on base.

Still, it means his home runs are less valuable to the team than other home runs with men on base.

um, then maybe he should be moved up in the lineup? just a silly thought.

some famous slugger said recently that they measure themselves by RBIs, which seems more relevant than OPS

thank god theo epstein doesnt measure players like this.

Triumph36

08-05-2005, 06:45 PM

I still think the Moneyball philosophy, as I know it (haven't read the book), is flawed. It is very successful against weak/mediocre pitching, but will falter against better pitching, i.e. in the playoffs. Drawing walks and hitting home runs is far easier against bad pitchers - good pitchers with good control won't walk many people, and won't give up many home runs. It is against these pitchers that manufacturing runs makes sense - giving up the shot at a 3 or 4 run inning for a more likely 1 run inning against a great pitcher can be +EV, IMO.

Let's not forget that had Boston not acquired the then .696-OPSed Dave Roberts, we're sitting here talking about the Yankees fifth championship in nine years. There has to be a departure from that strict philosophy.

sublime

08-05-2005, 06:46 PM

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 06:52 PM

You can't really compare little league players and major league baseball players.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought you were the guy that said you had to watch a player to judge them. Why're you using stats? Shouldn't you just say "well, Sheffield LOOKS like the better hitter"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Joannie, pay attention. I never said stats were worthless. I took issue with a post last week which cast aspersions on the Hall of Fame membership of certain old time players based solely on their OPS number. I don't feel a players worth can be filtered down to a single number. Different eras of baseball produced different stats, ie, dead ball era, juiced era, lowering of mound, etc. If you use OPS alone to measure a players offensive value that is idiotic. Also, idiotic is the notion that RBI's,and BA with RISP are trivial in relation to OPS. Ask Theo Epstein or Curt Schilling who they want to face on the Yankees with the tying and go ahead runs on base in the ninth, Giambi or Matsui. I guarantee you it isn't Matsui. And to state matter of factly that Giambi has been the best hitter this per at bat based solely on OPS is assinine. He has a great eye.He'll get his walks. I'll take Gary Sheffield free swinging and hitting lasers off the Green Monster any day of the week.

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I still think the Moneyball philosophy, as I know it (haven't read the book), is flawed. It is very successful against weak/mediocre pitching, but will falter against better pitching, i.e. in the playoffs. Drawing walks and hitting home runs is far easier against bad pitchers - good pitchers with good control won't walk many people, and won't give up many home runs. It is against these pitchers that manufacturing runs makes sense - giving up the shot at a 3 or 4 run inning for a more likely 1 run inning against a great pitcher can be +EV, IMO.

Let's not forget that had Boston not acquired the then .696-OPSed Dave Roberts, we're sitting here talking about the Yankees fifth championship in nine years. There has to be a departure from that strict philosophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the Moneyball philosophy in the slightest. The philosophy is to acquire players that are undervalued - which leads to the A's constantly retooling, getting young players and players that can play defense.

As to your point about drawing walks/hitting homers... I guess you don't realize that the Yankees drew more walks and hit more homers than the Red Sox last year.

Vince Young

08-05-2005, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can't really compare little league players and major league baseball players.

[/ QUOTE ]
A .400 OBP in little league is weak sauce anyways.

08-05-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I took issue with a post last week which cast aspersions on the Hall of Fame membership of certain old time players based solely on their OPS number.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, you mean my post about Rizzuto and his 706 OPS?

rizzuto sucked (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=sportevents&Number=2971914 &Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25 &Main=2964382&Search=true&where=&Name=41566&datera nge=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=#Post2971914)

You can take issue with it all you want. But the Hall let a 706 OPS guy into the Hall who wasn't fantastic defensively.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can take issue with it all you want. But the Hall let a 706 OPS guy into the Hall who wasn't fantastic defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what ?

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:02 PM

And to state matter of factly that Giambi has been the best hitter this per at bat based solely on OPS is assinine.

OMG. It combines the TWO most important offensive statistics in baseball, HOW IS THAT ASININE?????????

As a matter of fact, OBP is MORE important than SLG%, so Giambi hasd been more productive than i have been alluding to.

Instead of arguing with Jack, maybe you could investigate on your own and try to find out where he is coming from. education is priceless.

08-05-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can take issue with it all you want. But the Hall let a 706 OPS guy into the Hall who wasn't fantastic defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't even be participating in baseball threads acting like you know what you are talking about if you don't have a basic understanding of baseball statistics.

RBI are a good way to measure offense? I guess that makes Manny the MVP in the American League this year.

We got Joe Morgan Jr. over here.

technologic

08-05-2005, 07:04 PM

who's to say if torre gave him those plate appearances that he'd be better?

to say he's the best all around batter right now on the yankees is being EXTREMELY results oriented, since most of his ops, slg, etc. have come off a recent resurgance. if it keeps up, yea he can be the best in the lineup.

Triumph36

08-05-2005, 07:05 PM

Right, I should learn to look things up before I use a word thrown around far too often.

As for the Yankees, I'm surprised to see how low their collective average was last season. Then again no one in the lineup hit over .300, and I think the Yankees have 5 players at or near .300 this season. Oh well. At least they don't have any Mark Bellhorn types. FWIW, I think the Yankees lost the 04 ACLS in part because they swung for the fences too much - they expected Game 3's fireworks to last forever.

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can't really compare little league players and major league baseball players.

[/ QUOTE ]
A .400 OBP in little league is weak sauce anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

its being comared to the rest of the team. His SLG% will suck, but that fact that he leads his team in OBP% is not a reason to call him a bad offensive player. If I can recall my little league days correctly, you could steal scond base at will. IMO, putting this kid in the leadoff spot and teaching him how to steal a base would increse this teams offensive production by a VERY noticable margin.

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 07:06 PM

When have I EVER used OPS alone to measure a historical player's worth? You're just talking out of your ass here.

The point was that Bill Mazeroski was a below average offensive player no matter how you look at it: compared to his peers, his peers at his position, all time, every player at his position... ESPECIALLY when you compare him to other players in the Hall of Fame.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of arguing with Jack, maybe you could investigate on your own and try to find out where he is coming from. education is priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree it is priceless. And I learned in the first grade that the first letter of every sentence should be capitalized.

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:09 PM

At least they don't have any Mark Bellhorn types

Marke Bellhorn of 2004 was one of the best offensive 2B in MLB.

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:10 PM

When have I EVER used OPS alone to measure a historical player's worth?

does OPS+ do that?

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Right, I should learn to look things up before I use a word thrown around far too often.

As for the Yankees, I'm surprised to see how low their collective average was last season. Then again no one in the lineup hit over .300, and I think the Yankees have 5 players at or near .300 this season. Oh well. At least they don't have any Mark Bellhorn types. FWIW, I think the Yankees lost the 04 ACLS in part because they swung for the fences too much - they expected Game 3's fireworks to last forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this Joe Morgan? Joe you play poker?

08-05-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The point was that Bill Mazeroski was a below average offensive player no matter how you look at it: compared to his peers, his peers at his position, all time, every player at his position... ESPECIALLY when you compare him to other players in the Hall of Fame.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rizzuto and him are both pretty awful picks.

hoopsie44

08-05-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can take issue with it all you want. But the Hall let a 706 OPS guy into the Hall who wasn't fantastic defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't even be participating in baseball threads acting like you know what you are talking about if you don't have a basic understanding of baseball statistics.

RBI are a good way to measure offense? I guess that makes Manny the MVP in the American League this year.

We got Joe Morgan Jr. over here.

[/ QUOTE ]

RBI's are a part of the equation. And by the way, did you ever see Joe Morgan play? Joe Morgan was a great player who could win win a game with his bat, glove, or legs. Crunch your numbers. Stroke yourself off while you talk OPS and so forth. Criticize Morgan as an announcer. But he was a great player.

08-05-2005, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When have I EVER used OPS alone to measure a historical player's worth?

does OPS+ do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

OPS+ does it better than OPS for historical worth because average OPS can vary a lot between time periods in the game. This ia also why ERA+ is better for measuring the historical worth of a pitcher than ERA- because a 2.60 era in 2005 is much better than a 2.60 era in 1965.

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When have I EVER used OPS alone to measure a historical player's worth?

does OPS+ do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

OPS+ roughly adjusts for context by adjusting for park and the league average OPS of the player. It isn't perfect, and I prefer to use EqA anyway.

08-05-2005, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can take issue with it all you want. But the Hall let a 706 OPS guy into the Hall who wasn't fantastic defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't even be participating in baseball threads acting like you know what you are talking about if you don't have a basic understanding of baseball statistics.

RBI are a good way to measure offense? I guess that makes Manny the MVP in the American League this year.

We got Joe Morgan Jr. over here.

[/ QUOTE ]

RBI's are a part of the equation. And by the way, did you ever see Joe Morgan play? Joe Morgan was a great player who could win win a game with his bat, glove, or legs. Crunch your numbers. Stroke yourself off while you talk OPS and so forth. Criticize Morgan as an announcer. But he was a great player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said he wasn't a great player- he definitely was. But you want to know the irony of it bud? Joe Morgan was the prototypical Moneyball/sabermetric player. He had a career OBP that was 121 points higher than his career batting average. That's moneyball.

technologic

08-05-2005, 07:15 PM

i don't think you'll be see giambi stealing many bases...

the umpire called him out for one recently when he was safe...kind of like what happened when papi got tagged out by jeter last year when he was safe

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When have I EVER used OPS alone to measure a historical player's worth?

does OPS+ do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

OPS+ roughly adjusts for context by adjusting for park and the league average OPS of the player. It isn't perfect, and I prefer to use EqA anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was afraid if i introduced EqA to this debate somebody's brain might explode.

Matt Williams

08-05-2005, 07:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am a little league coach and the last 2 years the worse hitter on my team had the highest on base %. Why? Because he was too scared to hit the ball and walked all the time. His batting ave. was .000 and his on-base % was over .400. But he was the LAST player I wanted to see at the plate with a game on the line.

OBP > than AVG

its NOT close. he is probably one of the BETTER offensive players on your team. he sounds like the perfect leadoff man.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was. Poor kid was so scared he would never run and sometimes a hitter would pass him on the basepaths. God those kids pissed me off. They would never listen.

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think you'll be see giambi stealing many bases...

the umpire called him out for one recently when he was safe...kind of like what happened when papi got tagged out by jeter last year when he was safe

[/ QUOTE ]

i am talkign about the little league situation /images/graemlins/confused.gif

sublime

08-05-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a little league coach and the last 2 years the worse hitter on my team had the highest on base %. Why? Because he was too scared to hit the ball and walked all the time. His batting ave. was .000 and his on-base % was over .400. But he was the LAST player I wanted to see at the plate with a game on the line.

OBP > than AVG

its NOT close. he is probably one of the BETTER offensive players on your team. he sounds like the perfect leadoff man.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was. Poor kid was so scared he would never run and sometimes a hitter would pass him on the basepaths. God those kids pissed me off. They would never listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

well if he cant run then i guess he shouldnt lead off.

what he needs is a good ass kicking! and your the right man for the job!

technologic

08-05-2005, 07:22 PM

lol f-ing 50 different convos going on i don't know wtf is going on.

so basically, i don't know if you especially believe that giambi would be a good leadoff hitter, but that would definitely not happen because of his speed as aforementioned. it doesn't make sense to put him there, especially when he has a lot of cleanup/3-hole potential.

you attribute obp as a vital stat, which i agree, it is. however, giambi's obp can be based on that pitchers can feel free to pitch around giambi when they want because they only face bernie, posada/flaherty, womack afterwards.

Jack of Arcades

08-05-2005, 07:29 PM

08-06-2005, 03:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]

you attribute obp as a vital stat, which i agree, it is. however, giambi's obp can be based on that pitchers can feel free to pitch around giambi when they want because they only face bernie, posada/flaherty, womack afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I don't think Giambi has been walked for that reason much this year. He works a lot of long at bats deep into counts, like 3-2, and doesn't swing at many bad pitches.

DougOzzzz

08-06-2005, 03:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
lol f-ing 50 different convos going on i don't know wtf is going on.

so basically, i don't know if you especially believe that giambi would be a good leadoff hitter, but that would definitely not happen because of his speed as aforementioned. it doesn't make sense to put him there, especially when he has a lot of cleanup/3-hole potential.

you attribute obp as a vital stat, which i agree, it is. however, giambi's obp can be based on that pitchers can feel free to pitch around giambi when they want because they only face bernie, posada/flaherty, womack afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is weak.

First of all, Giambi has 5 intentional walks this year. Sheffield and A-Rod both have 6, and Matsui 5. Giambi has the highest rate in terms of IBB/PA, but removing them from OBP will produce very minimal changes.

Aside from the IBB, the rest makes no sense at all. Usually people argue that protection HELPS batters. I've never heard anyone try to argue that having weaker hitters behind you improves your stats.

Vince Young

08-06-2005, 04:07 AM

You don't have to IBB someone to pitch around them.

DougOzzzz

08-06-2005, 04:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to IBB someone to pitch around them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read my post?

DougOzzzz

08-06-2005, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to IBB someone to pitch around them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point I was trying to make, which I thought was implied, is that pitcher's "pitch around" hitters for a reason. They're not trying to walk the hitter, but they're accepting a much higher chance of walking him to avoid giving him "anything good" to hit. Most people argue that having protection, and thus being forced to pitch to a batter, IMPROVES a batter's stats. Yes, maybe there will be fewer walks, but more HRs, H's, RBI, higher BA, etc. That's why I thought it odd that whoever posted this would use lack of protection as a reason for Giambi's success.

Besides, as others have posted, I doubt this is even the case for Giambi. It's only this past month that it has made much sense for pitcher's to pitch around Giambi. And he was walking PLENTY in April/May/June.