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natedogg
08-05-2005, 01:31 AM
Interesting article about the decision to drop the bomb in '45.

Summary: Japan was not going to surrender. No Japanese with actual authority to negotiate surrender had made a peep. "The intercepts of Japanese Imperial Army and Navy messages disclosed without exception that Japan's armed forces were determined to fight a final Armageddon battle in the homeland against an Allied invasion"

US generals were horrified by the losses on Okinawa and had called off the invasion of Kyushu which had more men and materiel. There was some doubt about even attempting a homeland invasion. ~300,000 innocent civilians a month were dying under Japanese occupation.

To be clear, I'm *not* making a judgment. I used to be very pro-Hiroshima but have begun to change my mind lately. This article is good food for thought and a good reminder the none of us were there and none of us have complete information about that decision.

The Article

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=5894&R=C6713707B
The sixtieth anniversary of Hiroshima seems to be shaping up as a subdued affair--though not for any lack of significance. A survey of news editors in 1999 ranked the dropping of the atomic bomb on August 6, 1945, first among the top one hundred stories of the twentieth century. And any thoughtful list of controversies in American history would place it near the top again. It was not always so. In 1945, an overwhelming majority of Americans regarded as a matter of course that the United States had used atomic bombs to end the Pacific war. They further believed that those bombs had actually ended the war and saved countless lives. This set of beliefs is now sometimes labeled by academic historians the "traditionalist" view. One unkindly dubbed it the "patriotic orthodoxy."

But in the 1960s, what were previously modest and scattered challenges of the decision to use the bombs began to crystallize into a rival canon. The challengers were branded "revisionists," but this is inapt. Any historian who gains possession of significant new evidence has a duty to revise his appreciation of the relevant events. These challengers are better termed critics.

The critics share three fundamental premises. The first is that Japan's situation in 1945 was catastrophically hopeless. The second is that Japan's leaders recognized that fact and were seeking to surrender in the summer of 1945. The third is that thanks to decoded Japanese diplomatic messages, American leaders knew that Japan was about to surrender when they unleashed needless nuclear devastation. The critics divide over what prompted the decision to drop the bombs in spite of the impending surrender, with the most provocative arguments focusing on Washington's desire to intimidate the Kremlin. Among an important stratum of American society--and still more perhaps abroad--the critics' interpretation displaced the traditionalist view.

These rival narratives clashed in a major battle over the exhibition of the Enola Gay, the airplane from which the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, at the Smithsonian Institution in 1995. That confrontation froze many people's understanding of the competing views. Since then, however, a sheaf of new archival discoveries and publications has expanded our understanding of the events of August 1945. This new evidence requires serious revision of the terms of the debate. What is perhaps the most interesting feature of the new findings is that they make a case President Harry S. Truman deliberately chose not to make publicly in defense of his decision to use the bomb.

When scholars began to examine the archival records in the 1960s, some intuited quite correctly that the accounts of their decision-making that Truman and members of his administration had offered in 1945 were at least incomplete. And if Truman had refused to disclose fully his thinking, these scholars reasoned, it must be because the real basis for his choices would undermine or even delegitimize his decisions. It scarcely seemed plausible to such critics--or to almost anyone else--that there could be any legitimate reason that the U.S. government would have concealed at the time, and would continue to conceal, powerful evidence that supported and explained the president's decisions.

But beginning in the 1970s, we have acquired an array of new evidence from Japan and the United States. By far the most important single body of this new evidence consists of secret radio intelligence material, and what it highlights is the painful dilemma faced by Truman and his administration. In explaining their decisions to the public, they deliberately forfeited their best evidence. They did so because under the stringent security restrictions guarding radio intercepts, recipients of this intelligence up to and including the president were barred from retaining copies of briefing documents, from making any public reference to them whatsoever at the time or in their memoirs, and from retaining any record of what they had seen or what they had concluded from it. With a handful of exceptions, they obeyed these rules, both during the war and thereafter.

Collectively, the missing information is known as The Ultra Secret of World War II (after the title of a breakthrough book by Frederick William Winterbotham published in 1974). Ultra was the name given to what became a vast and enormously efficient Allied radio intelligence organization, which secretly unveiled masses of information for senior policymakers. Careful listening posts snatched copies of millions of cryptograms from the air. Code breakers then extracted the true text. The extent of the effort is staggering. By the summer of 1945, Allied radio intelligence was breaking into a million messages a month from the Japanese Imperial Army alone, and many thousands from the Imperial Navy and Japanese diplomats.

All of this effort and expertise would be squandered if the raw intercepts were not properly translated and analyzed and their disclosures distributed to those who needed to know. This is where Pearl Harbor played a role. In the aftermath of that disastrous surprise attack, Secretary of War Henry Stimson recognized that the fruits of radio intelligence were not being properly exploited. He set Alfred McCormack, a top-drawer lawyer with experience in handling complex cases, to the task of formulating a way to manage the distribution of information from Ultra. The system McCormack devised called for funneling all radio intelligence to a handful of extremely bright individuals who would evaluate the flood of messages, correlate them with all other sources, and then write daily summaries for policymakers.

By mid-1942, McCormack's scheme had evolved into a daily ritual that continued to the end of the war--and is in essence the system still in effect today. Every day, analysts prepared three mimeographed newsletters. Official couriers toting locked pouches delivered one copy of each summary to a tiny list of authorized recipients around the Washington area. (They also retrieved the previous day's distribution, which was then destroyed except for a file copy.) Two copies of each summary went to the White House, for the president and his chief of staff. Other copies went to a very select group of officers and civilian officials in the War and Navy Departments, the British Staff Mission, and the State Department. What is almost as interesting is the list of those not entitled to these top-level summaries: the vice president, any cabinet official outside the select few in the War, Navy, and State Departments, anyone in the Office of Strategic Services or the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or anyone in the Manhattan Project building the atomic bomb, from Major General Leslie Groves on down.

The three daily summaries were called the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary, the "Magic" Far East Summary, and the European Summary. ("Magic" was a code word coined by the U.S. Army's chief signal officer, who called his code breakers "magicians" and their product "Magic." The term "Ultra" came from the British and has generally prevailed as the preferred term among historians, but in 1945 "Magic" remained the American designation for radio intelligence, particularly that concerning the Japanese.) The "Magic" Diplomatic Summary covered intercepts from foreign diplomats all over the world. The "Magic" Far East Summary presented information on Japan's military, naval, and air situation. The European Summary paralleled the Far East summary in coverage and need not detain us. Each summary read like a newsmagazine. There were headlines and brief articles usually containing extended quotations from intercepts and commentary. The commentary was critical: Since no recipient retained any back issues, it was up to the editors to explain how each day's developments fitted into the broader picture.

When a complete set of the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary for the war years was first made public in 1978, the text contained a large number of redacted (literally whited out) passages. The critics reasonably asked whether the blanks concealed devastating revelations. Release of a nonredacted complete set in 1995 disclosed that the redacted areas had indeed contained a devastating revelation--but not about the use of the atomic bombs. Instead, the redacted areas concealed the embarrassing fact that Allied radio intelligence was reading the codes not just of the Axis powers, but also of some 30 other governments, including allies like France.

The diplomatic intercepts included, for example, those of neutral diplomats or attachés stationed in Japan. Critics highlighted a few nuggets from this trove in the 1978 releases, but with the complete release, we learned that there were only 3 or 4 messages suggesting the possibility of a compromise peace, while no fewer than 13 affirmed that Japan fully intended to fight to the bitter end. Another page in the critics' canon emphasized a squad of Japanese diplomats in Europe, from Sweden to the Vatican, who attempted to become peace entrepreneurs in their contacts with American officials. As the editors of the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary correctly made clear to American policymakers during the war, however, not a single one of these men (save one we will address shortly) possessed actual authority to act for the Japanese government.

An inner cabinet in Tokyo authorized Japan's only officially sanctioned diplomatic initiative. The Japanese dubbed this inner cabinet the Big Six because it comprised just six men: Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo, Army Minister Korechika Anami, Navy Minister Mitsumasa Yonai, and the chiefs of staff of the Imperial Army (General Yoshijiro Umezu) and Imperial Navy (Admiral Soemu Toyoda). In complete secrecy, the Big Six agreed on an approach to the Soviet Union in June 1945. This was not to ask the Soviets to deliver a "We surrender" note; rather, it aimed to enlist the Soviets as mediators to negotiate an end to the war satisfactory to the Big Six--in other words, a peace on terms satisfactory to the dominant militarists. Their minimal goal was not confined to guaranteed retention of the Imperial Institution; they also insisted on preservation of the old militaristic order in Japan, the one in which they ruled.

The conduit for this initiative was Japan's ambassador in Moscow, Naotake Sato. He communicated with Foreign Minister Togo--and, thanks to code breaking, with American policymakers. Ambassador Sato emerges in the intercepts as a devastating cross-examiner ruthlessly unmasking for history the feebleness of the whole enterprise. Sato immediately told Togo that the Soviets would never bestir themselves on behalf of Japan. The foreign minister could only insist that Sato follow his instructions. Sato demanded to know whether the government and the military supported the overture and what its legal basis was--after all, the official Japanese position, adopted in an Imperial Conference in June 1945 with the emperor's sanction, was a fight to the finish. The ambassador also demanded that Japan state concrete terms to end the war, otherwise the effort could not be taken seriously. Togo responded evasively that the "directing powers" and the government had authorized the effort--he did not and could not claim that the military in general supported it or that the fight-to-the-end policy had been replaced. Indeed, Togo added: "Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender."

This last comment triggered a fateful exchange. Critics have pointed out correctly that both Under Secretary of State Joseph Grew (the former U.S. ambassador to Japan and the leading expert on that nation within the government) and Secretary of War Henry Stimson advised Truman that a guarantee that the Imperial Institution would not be eliminated could prove essential to obtaining Japan's surrender. The critics further have argued that if only the United States had made such a guarantee, Japan would have surrendered. But when Foreign Minister Togo informed Ambassador Sato that Japan was not looking for anything like unconditional surrender, Sato promptly wired back a cable that the editors of the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary made clear to American policymakers "advocate[s] unconditional surrender provided the Imperial House is preserved." Togo's reply, quoted in the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary of July 22, 1945, was adamant: American policymakers could read for themselves Togo's rejection of Sato's proposal--with not even a hint that a guarantee of the Imperial House would be a step in the right direction. Any rational person following this exchange would conclude that modifying the demand for unconditional surrender to include a promise to preserve the Imperial House would not secure Japan's surrender.

Togo's initial messages--indicating that the emperor himself endorsed the effort to secure Soviet mediation and was prepared to send his own special envoy--elicited immediate attention from the editors of the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary, as well as Under Secretary of State Grew. Because of Grew's documented advice to Truman on the importance of the Imperial Institution, critics feature him in the role of the sage counsel. What the intercept evidence discloses is that Grew reviewed the Japanese effort and concurred with the U.S. Army's chief of intelligence, Major General Clayton Bissell, that the effort most likely represented a ploy to play on American war weariness. They deemed the possibility that it manifested a serious effort by the emperor to end the war "remote." Lest there be any doubt about Grew's mindset, as late as August 7, the day after Hiroshima, Grew drafted a memorandum with an oblique reference to radio intelligence again affirming his view that Tokyo still was not close to peace.

Starting with the publication of excerpts from the diaries of James Forrestal in 1951, the contents of a few of the diplomatic intercepts were revealed, and for decades the critics focused on these. But the release of the complete (unredacted) "Magic" Far East Summary, supplementing the Diplomatic Summary, in the 1990s revealed that the diplomatic messages amounted to a mere trickle by comparison with the torrent of military intercepts. The intercepts of Japanese Imperial Army and Navy messages disclosed without exception that Japan's armed forces were determined to fight a final Armageddon battle in the homeland against an Allied invasion. The Japanese called this strategy Ketsu Go (Operation Decisive). It was founded on the premise that American morale was brittle and could be shattered by heavy losses in the initial invasion. American politicians would then gladly negotiate an end to the war far more generous than unconditional surrender. Ultra was even more alarming in what it revealed about Japanese knowledge of American military plans. Intercepts demonstrated that the Japanese had correctly anticipated precisely where U.S. forces intended to land on Southern Kyushu in November 1945 (Operation Olympic). American planning for the Kyushu assault reflected adherence to the military rule of thumb that the attacker should outnumber the defender at least three to one to assure success at a reasonable cost. American estimates projected that on the date of the landings, the Japanese would have only three of their six field divisions on all of Kyushu in the southern target area where nine American divisions would push ashore. The estimates allowed that the Japanese would possess just 2,500 to 3,000 planes total throughout Japan to face Olympic. American aerial strength would be over four times greater.

From mid-July onwards, Ultra intercepts exposed a huge military buildup on Kyushu. Japanese ground forces exceeded prior estimates by a factor of four. Instead of 3 Japanese field divisions deployed in southern Kyushu to meet the 9 U.S. divisions, there were 10 Imperial Army divisions plus additional brigades. Japanese air forces exceeded prior estimates by a factor of two to four. Instead of 2,500 to 3,000 Japanese aircraft, estimates varied between about 6,000 and 10,000. One intelligence officer commented that the Japanese defenses threatened "to grow to [the] point where we attack on a ratio of one (1) to one (1) which is not the recipe for victory."

Concurrent with the publication of the radio intelligence material, additional papers of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have been released in the last decade. From these, it is clear that there was no true consensus among the Joint Chiefs of Staff about an invasion of Japan. The Army, led by General George C. Marshall, believed that the critical factor in achieving American war aims was time. Thus, Marshall and the Army advocated an invasion of the Home Islands as the fastest way to end the war. But the long-held Navy view was that the critical factor in achieving American war aims was casualties. The Navy was convinced that an invasion would be far too costly to sustain the support of the American people, and hence believed that blockade and bombardment were the sound course.

The picture becomes even more complex than previously understood because it emerged that the Navy chose to postpone a final showdown over these two strategies. The commander in chief of the U.S. fleet, Admiral Ernest King, informed his colleagues on the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April 1945 that he did not agree that Japan should be invaded. He concurred only that the Joint Chiefs must issue an invasion order immediately to create that option for the fall. But King predicted that the Joint Chiefs would revisit the issue of whether an invasion was wise in August or September. Meanwhile, two months of horrendous fighting ashore on Okinawa under skies filled with kamikazes convinced the commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, Admiral Chester Nimitz, that he should withdraw his prior support for at least the invasion of Kyushu. Nimitz informed King of this change in his views in strict confidence.

In August, the Ultra revelations propelled the Army and Navy towards a showdown over the invasion. On August 7 (the day after Hiroshima, which no one expected to prompt a quick surrender), General Marshall reacted to weeks of gathering gloom in the Ultra evidence by asking General Douglas MacArthur, who was to command what promised to be the greatest invasion in history, whether invading Kyushu in November as planned still looked sensible. MacArthur replied, amazingly, that he did not believe the radio intelligence! He vehemently urged the invasion should go forward as planned. (This, incidentally, demolishes later claims that MacArthur thought the Japanese were about to surrender at the time of Hiroshima.) On August 9 (the day the second bomb was dropped, on Nagasaki), King gathered the two messages in the exchange between Marshall and MacArthur and sent them to Nimitz. King told Nimitz to provide his views on the viability of invading Kyushu, with a copy to MacArthur. Clearly, nothing that had transpired since May would have altered Nimitz's view that Olympic was unwise. Ultra now made the invasion appear foolhardy to everyone but MacArthur. But King had not placed a deadline on Nimitz's response, and the Japanese surrender on August 15 allowed Nimitz to avoid starting what was certain to be one of the most tumultuous interservice battles of the whole war.

What this evidence illuminates is that one central tenet of the traditionalist view is wrong--but with a twist. Even with the full ration of caution that any historian should apply anytime he ventures comments on paths history did not take, in this instance it is now clear that the long-held belief that Operation Olympic loomed as a certainty is mistaken. Truman's reluctant endorsement of the Olympic invasion at a meeting in June 1945 was based in key part on the fact that the Joint Chiefs had presented it as their unanimous recommendation. (King went along with Marshall at the meeting, presumably because he deemed it premature to wage a showdown fight. He did comment to Truman that, of course, any invasion authorized then could be canceled later.) With the Navy's withdrawal of support, the terrible casualties in Okinawa, and the appalling radio-intelligence picture of the Japanese buildup on Kyushu, Olympic was not going forward as planned and authorized--period. But this evidence also shows that the demise of Olympic came not because it was deemed unnecessary, but because it had become unthinkable. It is hard to imagine anyone who could have been president at the time (a spectrum that includes FDR, Henry Wallace, William O. Douglas, Harry Truman, and Thomas Dewey) failing to authorize use of the atomic bombs in this circumstance. Japanese historians uncovered another key element of the story. After Hiroshima (August 6), Soviet entry into the war against Japan (August 8), and Nagasaki (August 9), the emperor intervened to break a deadlock within the government and decide that Japan must surrender in the early hours of August 10. The Japanese Foreign Ministry dispatched a message to the United States that day stating that Japan would accept the Potsdam Declaration, "with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler." This was not, as critics later asserted, merely a humble request that the emperor retain a modest figurehead role. As Japanese historians writing decades after the war emphasized, the demand that there be no compromise of the "prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler" as a precondition for the surrender was a demand that the United States grant the emperor veto power over occupation reforms and continue the rule of the old order in Japan. Fortunately, Japan specialists in the State Department immediately realized the actual purpose of this language and briefed Secretary of State James Byrnes, who insisted properly that this maneuver must be defeated. The maneuver further underscores the fact that right to the very end, the Japanese pursued twin goals: not only the preservation of the imperial system, but also preservation of the old order in Japan that had launched a war of aggression that killed 17 million.

This brings us to another aspect of history that now very belatedly has entered the controversy. Several American historians led by Robert Newman have insisted vigorously that any assessment of the end of the Pacific war must include the horrifying consequences of each continued day of the war for the Asian populations trapped within Japan's conquests. Newman calculates that between a quarter million and 400,000 Asians, overwhelmingly noncombatants, were dying each month the war continued. Newman et al. challenge whether an assessment of Truman's decision can highlight only the deaths of noncombatant civilians in the aggressor nation while ignoring much larger death tolls among noncombatant civilians in the victim nations.

There are a good many more points that now extend our understanding beyond the debates of 1995. But it is clear that all three of the critics' central premises are wrong. The Japanese did not see their situation as catastrophically hopeless. They were not seeking to surrender, but pursuing a negotiated end to the war that preserved the old order in Japan, not just a figurehead emperor. Finally, thanks to radio intelligence, American leaders, far from knowing that peace was at hand, understood--as one analytical piece in the "Magic" Far East Summary stated in July 1945, after a review of both the military and diplomatic intercepts--that "until the Japanese leaders realize that an invasion can not be repelled, there is little likelihood that they will accept any peace terms satisfactory to the Allies." This cannot be improved upon as a succinct and accurate summary of the military and diplomatic realities of the summer of 1945.

The displacement of the so-called traditionalist view within important segments of American opinion took several decades to accomplish. It will take a similar span of time to displace the critical orthodoxy that arose in the 1960s and prevailed roughly through the 1980s, and replace it with a richer appreciation for the realities of 1945. But the clock is ticking.

natedogg

andyfox
08-05-2005, 02:07 AM
I agree with the assessment in the article that anyone who had been U.S.President at that time would have used the atomic bombs. They were available, we had spent a great deal of money on them, and they were viewed, in a sense, as a continuation of the strateigc bombing of Japense cities that had ben taking place in 1945.

What the article does not address is the issue of whether the bombs caused the Japaneses to surrender.

Dynasty
08-05-2005, 04:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]

What the article does not address is the issue of whether the bombs caused the Japaneses to surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really in dispute?

whiskeytown
08-05-2005, 06:50 AM
apparently it is...

there has never been a leader/general who has had the info/knowledge your average armchair general 30 years later has had - we always forget that uncertainity part in war- something we almost never see thru history's glare a few yrs later.

if this article shows anything, it shows that you're constantly getting conflicting info in wartime - and the decision always has to be made quicker and with less certainity - after 20 years, one has the time to 2nd guess the decision, but not after Okinawa in 1945.

Of course, there are people who deny the holocaust, so there are bound to be a few who say the bombs didn't end the war even one day early - but there are fools everywhere.

RB

slickpoppa
08-05-2005, 09:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What the article does not address is the issue of whether the bombs caused the Japaneses to surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really in dispute?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is in dispute. What is in dispute is whether the bombs were necessary to make Japan surrender.

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 09:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What the article does not address is the issue of whether the bombs caused the Japaneses to surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really in dispute?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is in dispute. What is in dispute is whether the bombs were necessary to make Japan surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read that article?

slickpoppa
08-05-2005, 09:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What the article does not address is the issue of whether the bombs caused the Japaneses to surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really in dispute?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is in dispute. What is in dispute is whether the bombs were necessary to make Japan surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read that article?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Hamish McBagpipe
08-05-2005, 10:01 AM
Operation August Storm, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, Korea, the Sakhalin islands, and the Kuril islands was spectacularly successful. The million man Kwangtung army was basically swept away in the first 18 hours and the Soviets were marching unopposed within a week when hostilities ended.

I believe that this campaign is underexamined. The Soviet assault broke the Japanese political deadlock and forced the Japanese to realise that even retaining the home islands was hopeless. Coupled WITH the atomic bombings this campaign forced the Japanese to surrender. I believe that it is, therefore, debatable that the bombings themselves caused the surrender.

FishHooks
08-05-2005, 10:50 AM
There is also a THEORY that says the Japenese told the Russians they wanted to surrender before we dropped the bombs on Japan. The Russians were waiting to tell us for a raeson I can't remember. I dont think this is true because we were much more of a force than the Russians and the japenese would of told us if they were going to surrender. However just an idea to throw out there...

Rick Nebiolo
08-05-2005, 10:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Operation August Storm, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, Korea, the Sakhalin islands, and the Kuril islands was spectacularly successful. The million man Kwangtung army was basically swept away in the first 18 hours and the Soviets were marching unopposed within a week when hostilities ended.

I believe that this campaign is underexamined. The Soviet assault broke the Japanese political deadlock and forced the Japanese to realise that even retaining the home islands was hopeless. Coupled WITH the atomic bombings this campaign forced the Japanese to surrender. I believe that it is, therefore, debatable that the bombings themselves caused the surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy Fox and I among others debated the bombings years ago at least twice on this forum. Are there any good online links regarding August Storm other than this one (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/HAL.htm) that you would advise reading?

~ Rick

Hamish McBagpipe
08-05-2005, 11:00 AM
link (http://www.answers.com/topic/operation-august-storm)

I have read quite a bit on this campaign from WWII books but this is where I took a quick look to freshen up on that campaign, looks like it has some good links of its own but I haven't checked them out.

The timeline of the Soviet invasion makes it tough to overstate the significance of their attack but is still a very important, yet neglected, part of WWII history.

Rick Nebiolo
08-05-2005, 11:03 AM
Great link natedogg. Thanks.

~ Rick

Hamish McBagpipe
08-05-2005, 11:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There is also a THEORY that says the Japenese told the Russians they wanted to surrender before we dropped the bombs on Japan.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be true, I'd have to look further. Firstly, the Soviet invasion achieved surprise because Japanese forces were no expecting the attack before September, so this indicates a willingness to fight on. Secondly, I think I have read that if Japanese surrender was being contemplated before the atomic bombs being dropped then, just like Germany, the preference would be to surrender to the Americans rather than the Soviets. Using the Soviets as 3rd party mediators has been mentioned but that's about it I think.

sirio11
08-05-2005, 11:39 AM
I have to say that I was really surprised by this poll in the weekly standard home page, just 4% NO ?
And of course, the 12% is disturbing.

V-J Day +60

Sixty years after the end of the Second World War, do you approve of Truman's decision to use atomic weapons against Imperial Japan?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it was the only way to break Japan's will to fight.
23%

No, the use of nuclear weapons can never be justified.
2%

No, such extreme measures were not necessary.
2%

Yes, the bombs saved many Japanese and American lives.
58%

Yes, even if the bombs saved just one American life.
12%

Other
2%

andyfox
08-05-2005, 12:21 PM
A new book just published called Racing the Enemy makes the case for the Soviet entry into the Asia war on August 8 as the key element in the Japanese surrender. Others have made this case before.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 12:22 PM
Not as far as I'm concerned. They didn't cause the surrender.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 12:27 PM
One interesting thing about the article is the value of "revisionism." Conservatives, in the past, have denigrated revising history because they didn't like the results. For example, in regard to the atomic bomb, as the author points out, the original historical consensus basically agreed with the government's explanation of why the bombs were used. Then, as new documentation became available, other reasons for the use of the bombs were advanced. And since the revisionist history has taken hold, there is now newer documentation that may serve to change our perspective again.

We shouldn't fear revisionism. It is only natural that, as more documents become available and the emotions attendant to crucial historical events subside, that objective analysis becomes easier.

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 12:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Not as far as I'm concerned. They didn't cause the surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you say things like this, without a scintilla of evidence to support or justify your position, there's a slight chance that people might think that your opinions are shaped entirely by ideological bias. Just a slight chance.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 01:02 PM
We debated this at least twice, as Rick Nebiolo pointed out, a few years ago. I presented scintillas of evidence at that time. Don't know if the threads are too old to search.

But I can see what you're saying. FWIW, Truman, of course, was a liberal Democrat, as am I.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 01:12 PM
Here's the publicity blurb from USSB for this new book:

http://www.instadv.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=1297

sirio11
08-05-2005, 01:46 PM
Here it is:


While many Americans believe that World War II ended in the blinding flashes of the atomic bombs dropped on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August of 1945, historians have hotly debated if the American use of the atomic bombs was justified. With their exclusive focus on the atomic bombings, however, historians have not fully examined other important factors—the entry of the Soviet Union into the war and a confused and divided Japanese leadership.

But in his new book, "Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan" (Harvard University Press), Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, a professor of history at the University of California, Santa Barbara, presents a broader view that the New York Times has called "a brilliant and definitive study of American, Soviet, and Japanese records of the last weeks of the war." Examining in detail the deliberations of the Japanese leadership immersed in squabbling over how to end the war with the emperor system intact, Hasegawa claims the bombs were not the most decisive factor in Japan's decision to end the war. Only when the Soviets, jockeying with the United States for post-war influence in Asia, declared war and invaded Japanese-held Manchuria did the Japanese leadership capitulate to prevent falling under Soviet dominance.

"The Soviet factor has been treated as a sideshow by traditional history," said Hasegawa, who is fluent in Japanese, English and Russian and studied documents and conducted interviews in Japan, the United States and Russia in researching this book. "I bring it to center stage. I think the Soviet presence was crucial."

The American account of the Japanese surrender heretofore has been heavily influenced by an American need to justify the horrifying nuclear blasts, Hasegawa said.

"I think the use of the atomic bomb is an issue that still bothers the American conscience," Hasegawa said. "This book is going to give an unsettling feeling to the Americans who firmly believe that the bombs were justified, since they directly resulted in Japan's surrender. But if you look at the decision-making process in Japan, neither the Hiroshima bomb nor the Nagasaki bomb really played a decisive role."

Hasegawa said the Americans misunderstood the Japanese value system. "The American assumption was that if you dropped the bomb on Japan, Japanese leaders would immediately surrender because that's what American leaders would do in that situation," Hasegawa said. "But not everyone has the same value system. However sad or tragic, Japanese leaders were more concerned with maintenance of the Japanese emperor system than with the lives of ordinary citizens."

Hasegawa points out that by July of 1945, the Japanese leadership knew the war was lost. And an argument was going on at the highest levels of government whether to surrender immediately or hold out in hope of negotiating peace conditions favorable to maintaining the imperial system of government. Both sides in the dispute hoped to petition the Soviet Union to mediate a peace with the United States and its allies.

Even though the Soviets had let the Japanese know in April 1945 of their intention to abrogate the neutrality pact when it expired one year later, they "lulled the Japanese to sleep," as Soviet premier Josef Stalin put it, by leading the Japanese to believe that the neutrality pact was still in force. But secretly, the Soviets were sending troops, tanks, artillery, and equipment to prepare for the war against the Japanese.

Earlier, the United States had wanted Soviet entry into the war in the Pacific to help finish off the Japanese. President Franklin Roosevelt concluded the Yalta Secret Agreement in February 1945, granting to Stalin privileges and territorial gains in the Far East in return for the Soviet entry into the war in the Pacific.

But after April, President Harry Truman, who succeeded Roosevelt in April, began to have second thoughts about Soviet expansion in Asia. So when the Japanese refused to accept an ultimatum for unconditional surrender at the end of July 1945, hoping to hold out for a better deal through Soviet mediation, the United States followed with the August 6 atomic bomb on Hiroshima. According to Hasegawa, the bomb was intended to force immediate unconditional surrender before the Soviets could declare war and enter the fight. Hasegawa also claims that the Potsdam ultimatum that contained the unconditional surrender demand was issued, not as a warning, but as an excuse to justify the use of the atomic bomb.

Stalin had expected to be invited to sign the ultimatum against Japan. This would justify the Soviet violation of the neutrality pact. But Truman's decision to issue the ultimatum without inviting Stalin prompted Stalin to move up the date of attack against the Japanese forces in Manchuria by 10 days to August 11. The race had begun.

But despite the devastation and horrific carnage of the Hiroshima blast, Japanese leaders continued to argue and to hope for Soviet mediation. The atomic bomb on Hiroshima shocked Stalin, however. Stalin was convinced that the bombing of Hiroshima would immediately lead to Japan's surrender. He thought he had lost the race. But upon learning that the Japanese government continued to seek Moscow's mediation to terminate the war, he again moved up the date of attack against Japan by 48 hours, to the midnight of August 9, Far Eastern time, which was 6 p.m., August 8, Moscow time.

When the Japanese ambassador met with the Soviets in Moscow at 5 p.m. on August 8, however, he got unexpected news. The Soviets declared war on Japan and within one hour invaded Manchuria. Several hours later, the United States dropped a second atomic bomb on Nagasaki. Again the Japanese authorities were unswayed. Despite the destruction visited upon a second Japanese city, it was the invasion by the Soviet Union that got Japanese attention.

Finally, on August 14, with the Soviets gobbling up Manchuria, the Japanese, extremely fearful of falling under the influence of the Communists, tendered their unconditional surrender,

Hasegawa said the Japanese should have exited the war by accepting the Potsdam ultimatum. Had the Japanese government had the foresight to do so, there would have been neither the atomic bombs nor the Soviet entry into the war. He also raised the question of the Emperor's responsibility. He said that the Emperor should have abdicated after the war.

"After all, the war was fought in his name," Hasegawa said. "If he was crucial in Japan's decision to end the war, he was also responsible for prolonging the war until August." This view is also likely to provoke debate among the Japanese who believe that the emperor, in his intervention in the decision to surrender, saved Japan.

According to John Dower, Pulitzer Prize winning author, Hasegawa's "Racing the Enemy" is a "lucid, balanced, myth-shattering analysis of the turbulent end of World War II." Another Pulitzer winning author, Herbert Bix, comments: "Few have so thoroughly documented the complex evasions and Machiavellianism of Japanese, Russian, and especially, American leaders in the process of war termination." Fredrik Logevall, Cornell University historian and author of "Choosing War: The Lost Chance for Peace and the Escalation of War in Vietnam," said ‘‘Racing the Enemy' "is required reading for anyone interested in World War II and in 20th-century world affairs."

John Cole
08-05-2005, 02:11 PM
Andy,

Correct, of course, yet most here will continue to see the word "revisionism" as a synonym for "distortion."

Zeno
08-05-2005, 02:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
We shouldn't fear revisionism. It is only natural that, as more documents become available and the emotions attendant to crucial historical events subside, that objective analysis becomes easier [and more clear].

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy,

You would make a good Scientist.

And that is high praise. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Also, ignore that 'silly romanticism' comment so harshly cast at you by a person of dubious moral character.

-Zeno

Zeno
08-05-2005, 02:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Correct, of course, yet most here will continue to see the word "revisionism" as a synonym for "distortion."

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the scientific minded. "Revisionism", when based on correct and objective evidence, is a hallmark of the scientific method and most welcome by every scientist and further more - fully expected.

-Zeno

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 02:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Andy,

Correct, of course, yet most here will continue to see the word "revisionism" as a synonym for "distortion."

[/ QUOTE ]

Revisionism and new interpretations are of course vital to the evolution of historical understanding. It's equally important to understand that just because a work is "revisionist" does not mean that it isn't simultaneously a distortion. If you look at the work of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki revisionist school, I think you'll find that most of their work is heavily, heavily influenced by ideology and a desire to prove that the bombings were unjustified. As that OP's article lays out, many of their contentions about the intentions of US leaders were ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED by any sort of documentary evidence. A typical argument would be: (1) US would have won the war without the bombs; (2) bombs were not needed to win the war; (3) X individual in the government clearly had Y motivation that really explains why the bombs were dropped. If people weren't so busy congratulating these people for challenging the orthodox (and, as it turns out, incorrect) view in point 1, then they would realize some of the shaky argumentation ungirding points 2 and 3.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 03:13 PM
The author of the cited article, who thinks the arguments of the "revisionists" are not correct, himself rejects the term revisionism, rather preferring the term "critics":

The challengers were branded "revisionists," but this is inapt. Any historian who gains possession of significant new evidence has a duty to revise his appreciation of the relevant events. These challengers are better termed critics.

Hamish McBagpipe
08-05-2005, 03:14 PM
This is great stuff. I might grab that book as there is very little material on this topic. What immediately came to mind, though, in context with this thread, is that failures of intelligence have to be recognized. Do the Japanese think that there is a very limited supply of atomic bombs? How fast was news absorbed of their destructive capability? The timeline of the dropping of the bomb and the Soviet offensive make it hard to understand the importance of either.

Not mentioned in this excerpt is that the Soviet invasion was exactly 3 months after the cessation of hostilities in Europe and exactly when the Soviets said they would be ready to attack Japanese forces. So, I'm still undecided as to whether or not the Soviets are Johnny come lately's in the far east and the invasion was a bit of a sideshow. Or, that it was a major factor in the decision to drop the bombs in order to intimidate and check Soviet expansion in the east and was a greater factor in determining Japanese surrender.

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 03:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The author of the cited article, who thinks the arguments of the "revisionists" are not correct, himself rejects the term revisionism, rather preferring the term "critics":

The challengers were branded "revisionists," but this is inapt. Any historian who gains possession of significant new evidence has a duty to revise his appreciation of the relevant events. These challengers are better termed critics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't this quote be read as sort of a backhanded way of pointing out that the challengers didn't have any new facts?

andyfox
08-05-2005, 03:21 PM
A very well-written article. While the author does not directly answer the question I posed in my first post, namely, did the atomic bombs end the war, one would think his answer would be "yes," based on the following:

"[I]t is clear that all three of the critics' central premises are wrong. The Japanese did not see their situation as catastrophically hopeless. They were not seeking to surrender, but pursuing a negotiated end to the war that preserved the old order in Japan, not just a figurehead emperor. Finally, thanks to radio intelligence, American leaders, far from knowing that peace was at hand, understood--as one analytical piece in the "Magic" Far East Summary stated in July 1945, after a review of both the military and diplomatic intercepts--that 'until the Japanese leaders realize that an invasion can not be repelled, there is little likelihood that they will accept any peace terms satisfactory to the Allies.' This cannot be improved upon as a succinct and accurate summary of the military and diplomatic realities of the summer of 1945."

I'm not at all sure the evidence warrants this conclusion. But certainly the information in the article has to be considered. Also, I note that the author refutes one contention of the "consensus" historians as well, namely, that an invasion of the Japanese homeland would have to had taken place on November 1 had not the bombs been used and Japan surrendered:

"The Army, led by General George C. Marshall, believed that the critical factor in achieving American war aims was time. Thus, Marshall and the Army advocated an invasion of the Home Islands as the fastest way to end the war. But the long-held Navy view was that the critical factor in achieving American war aims was casualties. The Navy was convinced that an invasion would be far too costly to sustain the support of the American people, and hence believed that blockade and bombardment were the sound course.

"In August, the Ultra revelations propelled the Army and Navy towards a showdown over the invasion.

"Ultra now made the invasion appear foolhardy to everyone . . .

"the long-held belief that Operation Olympic loomed as a certainty is mistaken. Truman's reluctant endorsement of the Olympic invasion at a meeting in June 1945 was based in key part on the fact that the Joint Chiefs had presented it as their unanimous recommendation. . . . With the Navy's withdrawal of support, the terrible casualties in Okinawa, and the appalling radio-intelligence picture of the Japanese buildup on Kyushu, Olympic was not going forward as planned and authorized--period. But this evidence also shows that the demise of Olympic came not because it was deemed unnecessary, but because it had become unthinkable."

andyfox
08-05-2005, 03:26 PM
Unquestionably many of the so-called revisionists were politically on the left. So while their motivations should be questioned, it is also true that the so-called consensus or traditional historians were on the right. So ideological bias was present on both sides.

Your points (1) and (2) seem the same to me and have been questioned by many without leftist ideological bent, including many military figures. As for point (3), while "Y" motivation may not have been the"real" reason for using the bombs, certainly their motivations, as revealed in the documentary record, journals, diaries, etc., should be considered in any assessment.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 03:29 PM
Not the way I read the comment. Before the 1960s, historians basically just took the word of government leaders about things. But then, according to the author, "When scholars began to examine the archival records in the 1960s, some intuited quite correctly that the accounts of their decision-making that Truman and members of his administration had offered in 1945 were at least incomplete." So he gives them credit for examining hte archival records. He then says that since that time, since the 1970s, additional information has come to light that casts doubt on the conclusions of those who did their work in the 1960s.

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 03:49 PM
Well, my points 1 and 2 are deceptively similar, and I believe this is one of the flaws in a lot of revisionist thinking. My inpretation of the evidence suggests that, from the point of view of people at the time, and objectively, the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs were not much different from a massed strategic bombing raid. (There's even documentation discussing how to use atomic bombs in a tactical capacity [specifically bombing the important military port at Truk] had they been developed earlier.]) If you consider this different perspective, then Truman et al. probably would not have viewed the A-bomb as the last desperate resort, and would have made the decision to drop the bombs routinely. I think many people have a tendency to infuse these bombings with more significance than they really had, due to the great importance and great threat of nuclear weapons in the Cold War. Long story short, I think there is indeed a logical step between points 1 and 2 that is often not justified, or even understood, by those who take it.

That's all somewhat irrelevant. My charge against these revisionist historians is that their conclusions are not supported by much evidence at all. They try to demonstrate that the orthodox story is not fully accurate, then try to impute motives to US decision-makers by coincidence and insinuation, even though in many cases there is NO evidence that these motives were present. (You liberal types may understand me better if i say they were fixing the facts around the policy /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Bad history, IMHO.

I'm not going to bother to argue about what that particular passage is implying, because it doesn't matter.

Exsubmariner
08-05-2005, 04:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But this evidence also shows that the demise of Olympic came not because it was deemed unnecessary, but because it had become unthinkable

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the most remarkable piece of the article. The forces in place at the time were certainly not aware of this. For fifty years, veterens of the theator repeatedly said things like "I certainly supported the use of the atomic bombs, they saved my life." I think they were, and still are, right.
X

hurlyburly
08-05-2005, 05:31 PM
From the article:
[ QUOTE ]
In complete secrecy, the Big Six agreed on an approach to the Soviet Union in June 1945. This was not to ask the Soviets to deliver a "We surrender" note; rather, it aimed to enlist the Soviets as mediators to negotiate an end to the war satisfactory to the Big Six--in other words, a peace on terms satisfactory to the dominant militarists. Their minimal goal was not confined to guaranteed retention of the Imperial Institution; they also insisted on preservation of the old militaristic order in Japan, the one in which they ruled.

The conduit for this initiative was Japan's ambassador in Moscow, Naotake Sato. He communicated with Foreign Minister Togo--and, thanks to code breaking, with American policymakers. Ambassador Sato emerges in the intercepts as a devastating cross-examiner ruthlessly unmasking for history the feebleness of the whole enterprise. Sato immediately told Togo that the Soviets would never bestir themselves on behalf of Japan. The foreign minister could only insist that Sato follow his instructions. Sato demanded to know whether the government and the military supported the overture and what its legal basis was--after all, the official Japanese position, adopted in an Imperial Conference in June 1945 with the emperor's sanction, was a fight to the finish. The ambassador also demanded that Japan state concrete terms to end the war, otherwise the effort could not be taken seriously. Togo responded evasively that the "directing powers" and the government had authorized the effort--he did not and could not claim that the military in general supported it or that the fight-to-the-end policy had been replaced. Indeed, Togo added: "Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender."

[/ QUOTE ]

Why on earth they thought appealing to the Sovs as mediators was smart I can't imagine.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 05:43 PM
"from the point of view of people at the time, and objectively, the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs were not much different from a massed strategic bombing raid. (There's even documentation discussing how to use atomic bombs in a tactical capacity [specifically bombing the important military port at Truk] had they been developed earlier.]) If you consider this different perspective, then Truman et al. probably would not have viewed the A-bomb as the last desperate resort, and would have made the decision to drop the bombs routinely."

I think there's a case to be made for this, certainly. 100,000 people died in Tokyo in one night, so killing about that many with the bomb was, to a certain extent, seen as continuation, not as departure from policy.

But there's also the sense, in reading what the participants said at the time that they viewed the bombs as a watershed. (For example, when Truman learned of the successful test while at Potsdam, that changed the whole tenor of the meetings.) There was a Manhattan "Project" that was kept ultra-secret, so the development of atomic energy as a weapon was viewed as something special.

As far as the revisionist historians, I can't agree. I've read Bernstein's and Alperovitz's works and they present their cases with quotations from the documents and their conclusions seem reasonable to me. I would agree, perhaps, about the first generation of revisionists in their thinking about the Cold War, those who were followers of William Appleman Williams in the late 1960s, but not about the later anlysts of the atomic bomb decisions. I find the earlier consensus historians simply accepting the conventional wisdom without referral to documents.

In any event, it's curious that the first mainstream historian to study the bomb, Herbert Feis, who was given access to documents, concluded very early on that the bombs were not necessary to end the war. When given a chance to review his findings for a second publications of his work, he came to an even stronger feeling about it.

Be that as it may, the 60th anniversary of Hiroshima has generated new scholarly work on the subject, and that's good. The cited article in the original post in this thread is a fine work, and I'm excited to pick up the new book I posted about in this thread.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 05:44 PM
Stalin was part of the "Big Three." Certainly the Americans had made clear their commitment to unconditional surrender. But Stalin had not signed the Potsdam resolution, so perhaps they thought he could use his influence to convince the Americans to modify their surrender conditions.

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 05:45 PM
I have an Alperovitz article floating around somewhere, and I'll try to get up the energy to look at it sometime this weekend. The new book does look good though.

hurlyburly
08-05-2005, 05:46 PM
Very powerful stuff. Thanks, Nate.

hurlyburly
08-05-2005, 05:52 PM
True, I just shiver at the thought of going to Stalin for assistance, but that's hindsight. No question Japan was desperate.

hurlyburly
08-05-2005, 06:02 PM
Didn't search the threads, but knowing what we know, even if the bombs were dropped just to hasten the surrender and prevent further Soviet expansion, it's hard to disagree with their use.

It certainly appears to me that Japan's surrender was only to avoid being divided by the Sovs and US, and I think that worked out to our benefit.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 06:09 PM
He wrote his original book in the 1960s, and revised it in, I think 1995. Here's a good site for Alperovitz:

http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

scalf
08-05-2005, 08:03 PM
/images/graemlins/confused.gif..

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that dropping the bomb was a necessary thing... the japs are fanatics; and it just had to be done; those that disagree might want to take a hike down bataan..

gl

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif

eviljeff
08-05-2005, 08:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the japs are fanatics; and it just had to be done

[/ QUOTE ]

have you even read the other posts? this is the least cogent argument ever.

bholdr
08-05-2005, 08:20 PM
a disclaimer: i only skimmed the article. if i have the time i'll slog through it.(<---ain't gonna happen) I have only studied the subject as an intrested layman- i'm not terribly into WWII... but:

I have always believed that Truman made the right descision in dropping the bomb, i agree with several of the standard arguments, BUT, there's a better reason, IMO, and it's likely, also imo, that this was taken into consideration by Truman and the descision makers in washington:

Other countries were going to get the bomb eventually, and one was going to get used- maybe many. there is no question in my mind that if we hadn't used the bomb in WWII, one or more would have been used somewhere else, and likely not by a democracy in a justifiable action.

by dropping the bomb first, Truman demonstrated to the world the horror and unparalled destruction that nuclear weapons cause... and announced, clearly, that the US had them and was willing to use them- a demonstration of political will that probably helped keep the soviets in check postwar. ...it's a good thing that we (and the rest of the world) learned those lessons early, instead of waiting, for example, for korea, where MacArthur may have gotten his way and nuked the north and china, had we not been exposed to the horrors of nukes already. they HAD to be used eventually, and the US might as well have reaped the benifits of being the first.

Utah
08-05-2005, 08:58 PM
What amazes me is that this country can condemn the attack on civilians at the WTC as nothing but evil and declare anyone that purposely attacks civilians as barbaric and then turn around and talk about why it was a rational decision to blow the living [censored] out of 10,000s of civilians.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 09:08 PM
Picked up a copy at lunch and have read through it a bit. Some quotes:

"There is no convincing evidence to show that the Hiroshima bomb had a direct and immediate impact on Japan's decision to surrender. All that can be said is that the damage it inflicted on Hiroshima made the determination of some leaders--including the emperor, Kido ,and Togo--to terminate the war as quickly as possible even greater. Nevertheless, it did not lead to their decision to accept the Potsdam terms. If anything, the atomic bomb on Hiroshima further contributed to their desperate effort to terminate the war through Moscow's mediation."

"Would Japan have surrendered before November 1 on the basis of the atomic bomb alone, without the Soviet entry into the war? The two bombs alone would most likely not have prompted the Japanese to surrender, so long as they still had hope that Moscow woud mediate peace. The Hiroshima bombing did not significantly change Japan's policy, though it did inject a sense of urgency into the peace party's initiative to end the war. Without the Soviet entry into the war, it is not likely that the Nagasaki bomb would have changed the situation. Anami's warning that the United States might have 100 atomic bombs and that the next target might be Tokyo had no discernible impact on the debate."

"Japan's decision to surrender was above all a political decision, not a military one. Therefore, even without the atomic bombs, the war most likely would have ended shortly after Soviet entry into the war--before November 1."

"Evidence makes clear that there were alternatives to the use of the bomb, alternatives that the Truman administration for reasons of its own declined to pursue."

sirio11
08-05-2005, 09:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What amazes me is that this country can condemn the attack on civilians at the WTC as nothing but evil and declare anyone that purposely attacks civilians as barbaric and then turn around and talk about why it was a rational decision to blow the living [censored] out of 10,000s of civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arnfinn Madsen
08-05-2005, 09:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What amazes me is that this country can condemn the attack on civilians at the WTC as nothing but evil and declare anyone that purposely attacks civilians as barbaric and then turn around and talk about why it was a rational decision to blow the living [censored] out of 10,000s of civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the dividing line between most of Europe and the US, we try to not become evil in the process of fighting evil, while the US is justyfying evil acts by positioning the enemy as evil not realizing it becomes a devil wearing different clothes. The axis of evil has turned into a pigsty of evils including Al-Qaida, US, Israel etc..

Millions of example, but just look at the pro-democracy activists being arrested in Saudi Arabia.

Chris Alger
08-05-2005, 10:40 PM
Re the 12%. I recall reading that a consistent 13% of the U.S. public, in various polls during the war, wanted the U.S. to completely exterminate the Japanese.

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 10:42 PM
I have another problem with quotes like this one, particularly the last paragraph. I'm guessing that the evidence he uses to prove that the Japanese decision was not motivated by the bomb was not available to Truman. So how does he infer that Truman declined to pursue these alternatives out of "other reasons," rather than mere ignorance?

bobman0330
08-05-2005, 10:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What amazes me is that this country can condemn the attack on civilians at the WTC as nothing but evil and declare anyone that purposely attacks civilians as barbaric and then turn around and talk about why it was a rational decision to blow the living [censored] out of 10,000s of civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the dividing line between most of Europe and the US, we try to not become evil in the process of fighting evil, while the US is justyfying evil acts by positioning the enemy as evil not realizing it becomes a devil wearing different clothes. The axis of evil has turned into a pigsty of evils including Al-Qaida, US, Israel etc..

Millions of example, but just look at the pro-democracy activists being arrested in Saudi Arabia.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arfinn:
Nothing remotely germane to this thread is what you conceive of as the "dividing line" between the US and Europe. WWII atrocities are damn sure not the dividing line. Europeans committed just as many as the US.

Arnfinn Madsen
08-05-2005, 11:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What amazes me is that this country can condemn the attack on civilians at the WTC as nothing but evil and declare anyone that purposely attacks civilians as barbaric and then turn around and talk about why it was a rational decision to blow the living [censored] out of 10,000s of civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the dividing line between most of Europe and the US, we try to not become evil in the process of fighting evil, while the US is justyfying evil acts by positioning the enemy as evil not realizing it becomes a devil wearing different clothes. The axis of evil has turned into a pigsty of evils including Al-Qaida, US, Israel etc..

Millions of example, but just look at the pro-democracy activists being arrested in Saudi Arabia.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arfinn:
Nothing remotely germane to this thread is what you conceive of as the "dividing line" between the US and Europe. WWII atrocities are damn sure not the dividing line. Europeans committed just as many as the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was speaking of the sentiment provided in my quote which I find currently to be a mainly US sentiment. In WW2 most atrocities were conducted by Europeans. I think WW2 will not survive as a "heroic" war in light of history although I am happy that my favourite side won /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

andyfox
08-05-2005, 11:17 PM
"I'm guessing that the evidence he uses to prove that the Japanese decision was not motivated by the bomb was not available to Truman."

As the author of the article in the original post points out, we had broken the Japanese code and were intercepting their telegrams. So we were aware of much that was going on.

But there are two issues involved: 1) Did the atomic bombs result in the Japanese surrender? and 2) Did Truman feel the atomic bombs were necessary for the Japanese to surrender? My position is no on 1); and probably yes on 2). But even if the answer to 2) is clearly yes, there may have been additional factors impelling Truman's decision. Certainly the fact that we had the bombs and that they were available for use was a factor. And it seems certain that they were used in order to try to force Japanese surrender before the Soviets entered the war. There's no contradiction between saying the bombs were used to effect a surrender and saying the surrender was wanted before the Soviets entered the war. Having intercepted the Japanese cables, we knew they were negotiating with the Soviets.

Josh W
08-05-2005, 11:22 PM
Andy, i'm not as old as you, so I don't 'remember'....perhaps you do...

I'm somewhat sure that the Russians declared war on Japan AFTER Hiroshima but before Nagasaki....I haven't read this thread because there are lots of words, and those just aren't my thing.

See, I've maintained (although I have a somewhat flexible viewpoint) that Hiroshima was close to a 'good decision', whereas Nagasaki was immensely inhumane. My reasoning has a lot to do with the timeline above....

Josh

andyfox
08-05-2005, 11:25 PM
10% to 13% consistently supported the "annihilation" or "extermination" of the Japanese as a people. In a poll conducted in December 1944 asking "What do you think we should do with Japan as a country after the war?", 13% wanted to "kill all Japanese" and 33% supported destroying Japan as a political entity. A poll conducted by Fortune in December 1945 found that 22.7% of respondents wished the United States had had the opportunity to use "many more of them [atomic bombs] before Japan had a chance to surrender."

andyfox
08-05-2005, 11:31 PM
Yes, the formal declaration of war came between the two bombs. But the situation was very complicated. Not many people realize, I would think, that Soviet military maneuvers in the Far East accelerated after Moscow learned of Japan's intention to surrender, and continued evern after the Japnese signed the official surrender papers.

Zeno
08-06-2005, 12:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
10% to 13% consistently supported the "annihilation" or "extermination" of the Japanese as a people. In a poll conducted in December 1944 asking "What do you think we should do with Japan as a country after the war?", 13% wanted to "kill all Japanese" and 33% supported destroying Japan as a political entity. A poll conducted by Fortune in December 1945 found that 22.7% of respondents wished the United States had had the opportunity to use "many more of them [atomic bombs] before Japan had a chance to surrender."

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the above poll numbers should be much of a suprise to anyone, the reasons are, in my opinion, obvious.

This has been at least the third time we have been over this and I have enjoyed the discussions each time. So I will finally say something that I almost added the last time this issue came up.

My father was part of the occupation troops of Japan immediately after the war; in fact they did a military landing even though the Japanese had surrendered, in case a few holdouts etc would put up resistance. He never talked too much about his experiences, but around the dinner table he would hint at things and what he saw, and answer questions us young ones would bring up. He was in Japan for almost two years. He would sometimes relate about the all the destruction and devastation he saw, the terrible conditions many lived under, the sorry state of the citizens - especially the children, the shock and hate he saw in Japanese soldiers eyes arriving from Manchuria at train stations, at seeing them [American soldiers] in their country and other details. He saw Hiroshima and probably also Nagasaki. I think he made the following statement only once and I have often wondered about it, but one night after he was talking about his time in Japan, he said – ‘They didn't have to drop those two bombs’. He never stated any reasons, just the conclusion. What he knew, how much he knew, and why exactly he came to that conclusion is unknown to me, I can guess of course but that is not the same thing. Perhaps someday soon I will ask him his reasons.

-Zeno

sirio11
08-06-2005, 12:25 AM
Thanks for sharing Zeno.

andyfox
08-06-2005, 12:31 AM
According to the article:

"Critics have pointed out correctly that both Under Secretary of State Joseph Grew (the former U.S. ambassador to Japan and the leading expert on that nation within the government) and Secretary of War Henry Stimson advised Truman that a guarantee that the Imperial Institution would not be eliminated could prove essential to obtaining Japan's surrender. The critics further have argued that if only the United States had made such a guarantee, Japan would have surrendered. But when Foreign Minister Togo informed Ambassador Sato that Japan was not looking for anything like unconditional surrender, Sato promptly wired back a cable that the editors of the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary made clear to American policymakers "advocate[s] unconditional surrender provided the Imperial House is preserved." Togo's reply, quoted in the "Magic" Diplomatic Summary of July 22, 1945, was adamant: American policymakers could read for themselves Togo's rejection of Sato's proposal--with not even a hint that a guarantee of the Imperial House would be a step in the right direction. Any rational person following this exchange would conclude that modifying the demand for unconditional surrender to include a promise to preserve the Imperial House would not secure Japan's surrender." [emphasis added]

I don't see how any rational person could come to that conclusion. On July 12, Togo told Sato to present a message to Stalin's right-hand man (Molotov) which said:

"His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present was daily rings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all he belligerent poweres, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on . . ." [emphasis added]

On July 17, Togo cabled Sato: "If today America and England were to recognize Japan's honor and existence, they would put an end to the war and save humanity from participation in the war, but if they inist unrelentingly upon unconditonal surrender, Japan is unanimous in its resolve to wage a thoroughgoing war." [emphasis added]

Togo on July 21: "Even if war drags on and it becomes clear that it will take much more than bloodshed, the whole country as one man will pit itself agaisnt the enemy in accordance withthe Imperial Will so long as the enemy demands unconditional surrender . . ." [emphasis added]

Rick Nebiolo
08-06-2005, 02:41 AM
This post may not have the appropriate level of gravitas but I'm really curious. You bought this book during lunch, read though it a bit, and still had the time and energy to type in an extended excerpt. How long are your lunches" /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

~ Rick

andyfox
08-06-2005, 10:57 AM
You have no idea.

scalf
08-06-2005, 11:33 AM
/images/graemlins/blush.gif stalin was a ruthless sob that no one trusted; nor should they....the only person who realy uderstood stalin was george b scott..

gl

/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

bobman0330
08-06-2005, 11:43 AM
The quotes you offered, on their face at least, don't say how the unconditional surrender demand would need to be modified for Japan to accept.

John Cole
08-06-2005, 12:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the great lines in any movie, delivered with aplomb by Jeremy Irons plaing Claus Von Bulow when told by Dershowitz that he is a strange man.

andyfox
08-06-2005, 12:28 PM
From what I've read so far, the Japanese had a concept of "Kukotai, which was a symbolic expression of both the political and the spiritual essence of hte emperor system. It was a kind of mythical notion wherein the emperor's monopolistic power over the military command was paramount (and this provided the major impetus for Japan's unbridled military expansion).

Three American leaders in particular tried to get Truman to modify the demand for unconditional surrender: Secretary of War Strimson, undersecretary of state Joseph Grew and secretary of the navy James Forrestal. Admiral Leahy and possibly General Marshall supported this too. Former President Herbert Hoover influenced Stimson's thinking with a letter to Truman, that Truman showed to Stimson, saying that the Japanese moderate element "desirous of preserving both nation and the emperor" would find it easier to accept the terms "if Britain and American [sic] could persuade the Japanese they had no intention of eradicating them, eliminating their system of government, or interfering withtheir way of life." Stimson thereafter said that he had "no hesitation in abandoning " the unconditional surrender formula so long as the United States could "accomplish all of our strategic objectives without the use of this phrase." Grew argued that "we would have nothing to lose by warning the Japanese of the cataclysmic consequences of the weapon we possessed and indicating that we would be prepared to allow Japan to continue as a constitutional monarchy." Forrestal agreed with the wisdom of modifying the demand for unconditional surrender.

Assistant secretary of War John McCloy, at the meeting during which Truman tentatively approved Opearation Olympic (the invasion of Japan), as he was about to leave the room, was stopped by Truman: "McCloy, you didn't express yourself, and nobody gets out of this room without standing up and being counted. [Contrast that attitude with that of the current White House occupant.] Do you think I have any reasonable alternative to the decision that has just been taken?" Stimson nodded and told McCloy to feel entirely free to express his view. McCloy said, "I think you have an alternative that ought to be fully explored and that, really, we ought to have our heads examined if we do not seek some other method by which we can terminate this war successfully other than by another conventional attack and landing. We should send a strong communication to the emperor" that we would demand a full surrender but that we would recognize Japan's right to continue to exist as a nation, including the preservation of the emperor under a constitutional monarchy.

The author of Racing the Enemy concludes that allowing the Japanese to retain a constitutional monarch would not have resulted in an immediate Japanese surrender following the Potsdam declaration but would have hastened surrender, though it is doubtful that the surrender would have come before the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and the Soviet Union entered the war.

John Cole
08-06-2005, 12:47 PM
Yesterday I heard an interesting discusion of WWII proganda films and the various depictions of the Japanese during WWII. It is, given the types of propaganda and representation, perhaps surprising that only 10-13% favored total anihilation. Keep in mind that the words "Jap" and "Japs" were used by every newspaper in the US, and the Japanese were caricatured as buck-toothed simians, less than human in appearance. Add to this the Japanese waging of war as "total anihilation" for a period of nearly one hundred years prior to WWII, that the Japanese military was never content to simply win a battle during WWII, and the large scale atrocities practiced by the Japanese military, we would expect such a number.

The commentator did make one very interesting observation about the various types of rascist propaganda. He said that such propaganda was often counterproductive because it did not really inspire Americans to commit to self-sacrifice.

lehighguy
08-06-2005, 12:52 PM
Getting rid of the emporer, having him admit he wasn't a god, was a good thing for Japan over the long run. As were most of the reforms forced on the Japanese people after defeat.

Unconditional surrender was a good thing to push for. It was the only way to truly reshape the country and make it a prosperous modern democracy.

Rick Nebiolo
08-06-2005, 05:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the great lines in any movie, delivered with aplomb by Jeremy Irons plaing Claus Von Bulow when told by Dershowitz that he is a strange man.

[/ QUOTE ]

And my Mom was often in the audience for the Von Bulow trials (and her friend was a juror for the first one where he was convicted). Coincidence - I don't think so.

~ Rick

andyfox
08-07-2005, 12:04 PM
In July 1941, monthe before Pearl Harbor, cartoonist David Low, whose work appeered in the Evening Standard in London and was widely reproduced, depicted three stalwart white servicemen standing stripped to the waist beneath a palm tree and gazing out into the Pacific; they were identified as the Unied States, Britain, and the U.S.S.R. Hanging by its tail from the tree was a monkey labeled "Jap," wearing eyeglasses, clutching a dagger, and contemplating which white man to stab in the back. In October, he portrayed Tojo's assumption of the premiership with a drawing of a gorilla in admiral's uniform.

He continued in this vein and in March 1942 he showed a Japan as a monkey suspended by it's tail. The New York Times liked this one so much it reproduced it on the front page of its Sunday book-review section, as an illustration for a review of books on Japanese policy. The Times continued producing this type of imagery throughout the war.

Early in 1945, the Times called on its own staff for the following:

"Men or Beasts? To size up the Japanese hasn't been easy at this great distance. One opinion is that they are no more than monkeys; another that they are human beings, after all, though in a state of arrested development. Nicosia Osmena, son of the Philippines President, who has had to live with them for three grim years, offers a compromise theory. To him the Japanese is the Missing Link." This was accompanied by a drawing of a monkey hanging from a tree by its tail, looking into a mirror which showed a bucktoothed, eyeglass wearing image.

andyfox
08-07-2005, 12:15 PM
While you may be right, neither Truman nor Stalin were interested in the long run. Truman would not have modified the unconditional surrender demand not because he was interested in making Japan a modern democracy but for other reasons: he was concerned with how the public would react to what they might see as a poicy of appeasement; he felt deeply that America should avenge the humiliation of Pearl Harbor; and, perhaps most importantly, he knew that the unconditional surrender demand without any promise to preserve a constitutional monarchy would certainly be rejected by the Japanese, and he needed that refusal to justify the use of the atomic bomb. Thus as long as he was committed to using the atomic bomb, he could not include the provision promising a constitutonal monarchy.

From Stalin's point of view, his most important objective was to join the conflict in the Pacific. The promise of a constitutioanl monarchy might have hastened Japan's surrender before the Soviet tanks crossed the Manchurian border--a disaster, in Stalin's eyes, he would have avoided at all costs.