Poker education similar to Sex education?

[molawn2mo]

I thought to post the following in this forum rather than in the Psych Forum (though I may give that a shot, too) because I suspect that you, Ootiots, would tend to be younger than those frequenting most other forums and I want more "youthful" feedback even at the risk of subjecting myself to GodKnowsWhat!

Ootiots.... Your thoughts on the following:

Background is....I have taught my kids ages 15/13/9 some of the very basics of limit holdem. We have delved into math and probability. We have discussed the real basics of game theory and psychology. This "education" began as a way of helping my kids with their math homework. It then developed into a bonding/fun experience for all. It broadened their math skills and to that end it was, somewhat, successful. One child, in particular, clearly improved his grades due to the discipline of having to do his homework and play poker with Dad.

OK Ootiots... am I creating a big problem in the near future (in high school and thence college) by "condoning" gambling? As an aside, I spend a goodly amount of effort denouncing "gambling" per say. I stress that poker is a mathematical and psychological effort differentiating same from "games of chance." We talk about this constantly. The kids, of course, at their ages do not really understand the difference, but I do stress it.

Can I rationalize my behavior by saying that since poker is pretty much universally played in HS and college, my kids should become, at the very least, somewhat proficient and, hopefully, kickass. I mean, if you are going to do something albeit sports, school, work, you might as well do it well and to the best of your ability. I truly believe that.

Am I a retard? Am I creating a Frankenstein that I will not be able to control or at least guide. Am I contributing to the potential degeneracy of my kids?

Is it fair to analogize poker with sex? That is, since it is beneficial to speak with the kids frankly about sex, offering them literature and condoms/birth control if they choose to not abstain wouldn't my educating the kids about poker be considered as similarly beneficial?

Or... am I a selfish bastard who likes to play poker just a little too much and is jeopardizing their well-being?

What say you?

I am leaving my office now and will not be able to respond for a couple of hours.

[BoogerFace]

I vote for selfish bastard.

Seriously, how are you going to like it when one of your kids says I'm gonna drop out of college and be an online pro?

Read Moneymakers book. He got started with prop bets at a very early age.

[tbach24]

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I have taught my kids ages 15/13/9

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It took me like 5 tries to realize these weren't some new type of stats.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

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I have taught my kids ages 15/13/9

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It took me like 5 tries to realize these weren't some new type of stats.

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POTD

[asofel]

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I have taught my kids ages 15/13/9

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It took me like 5 tries to realize these weren't some new type of stats.

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POTD

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yeah i was about to say 'dude, AF of 9, wtf??'

[Dr. StrangeloveX]

Haha, I automatically skipped the sentence because I don't pay attention to stats.

[Fabian]

I think it's a good thing, as long as you don't overdo it, make sure they feel it's a fun hobby. If they end up playing poker with dad for 10 hours a week I could see them becoming very serious about the game within let's say 5 or 10 years. Which may or may not be a good thing, but I would certainly prefer my kids winning everybody's lunch money in school to them becoming college dropout internet poker pros.

[Stuey]

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Is it fair to analogize poker with sex? That is, since it is beneficial to speak with the kids frankly about sex, offering them literature and condoms/birth control if they choose to not abstain wouldn't my educating the kids about poker be considered as similarly beneficial?

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Will you show your kids how to be good at sex?

I don't have kids so I have no idea what you should do. But I am pretty sure you should not compare it to sex. I know parents that smoked weed with their kids to try and educate them about it instead of letting them learn from strangers. I can't help but think this is a terrible idea.

I think kids will imitate their parents so if you are ok with them playing poker then I guess it is ok to teach them.

Edit: Be careful you are not just making excuses to enable yourself to get what you want without considering what is truly good for the kids in the long run.

[molawn2mo]

I am not comparing gambling with sex but, rather, I am postulating that it may be beneficial to educate the kids about poker/gambling just like they are taught about sex. Similar reasoning might be that we educate our kids about matters that have a significant impact upon them, sex certainly fits that criteria. They are taught about STDs, AIDS, birth control, etc. Why not educate them about Poker/Gambling?

To be sure, this is a rationazation to some extent. I enjoy playing and it gives us a certain bond. But just as teaching sex in school or at home is not meant to condone the practicing of same before an appropriate age or maturity, similarly, my kids education about gambling ought not be automatically construed as encouraging anti-social behavior that is commonly associated with poker/gambling.

Comments?

[RiverDood]

I almost like your analogy -- but not quite.

Just about everyone in adulthood (except for a few monks) is going to find that sex plays some role in their life. A few words to the wise during adolescence can help make that a +EV experience.

Not everyone needs to play poker. Or even consider playing it. Some people just aren't any good. Some dislike the gambling overtones. Some have no self control and are constantly prone to going broke.

So as much as we all enjoy poker, there's an argument for thinking twice before introducing it to people under age 18. It all depends on your kids. Some teens get enjoyment (and maybe even some $$) out of the best of the game and avoid the bad stuff.

Others don't handle the excitement, the bankroll or the social stresses well. Before I spent any time teaching my kids how to play TPTK in a 3-handed pot, I'd want to make sure they were likely to go the Greg Raymer path (solid education, legit day job if needed, nice family, stable and engaging personality) rather than, say, the Stu Ungar path.

[Orpheus]

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A few words to the wise during adolescence can help make that a +EV experience.

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Actually, The last thing I want is for my kids to be --or make someone else be-- "expecting" in their early sexual experiences. Or doesn't anyone use that euphemism anymore?

Isn't there a thread about how repeatedly "doubling up" very early in your career can be a dangerous thing?

[Al Schoonmaker]

Your analogy is a good one. Since kids are going to get involved in both sex and poker, it's MUCH better to educate them.

They are probably going to play both "games," and they should play them intelligently.

People who don't understand sex have terrible problems such as unwanted pregnancies and AIDS.

People who don't understand poker just lose money.

One correction. Poker IS gambling. See SSH.

Regards,

Al

[molawn2mo]

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Not everyone needs to play poker. Or even consider playing it. Some people just aren't any good. Some dislike the gambling overtones. Some have no self control and are constantly prone to going broke.

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The logic, rightly or wrongly, goes... since the kids are most assuredly going to be exposed to poker/gambling in college if not sooner, then educating them about the game itself, how to play, how to think about the game, how to win... as well as open discussion on the potential negative effects is +EV.

Knowledge is power.

To say that they ought not be introdiced to it pre 18 years of age is ludicrous. They are being introdiced to it. If so, then isn't it prudent that they become educated rather than from the local hustler?

The more that I write on this the more clear the analogy between sex education and gambling education seems appropriate.

[molawn2mo]

I appreciate your insight, Dr. Al.

[Kablooie]

There are certainly aspects to gambling that should be more widely known. In particular the experiments from psychology that showed that training animals to perform tasks with random rewards for sucess is much more effective than just giving them a reward every time they correctly perform the task. As in, a _lot_ more effective - and this is certainly part of why gambling does cause problems for so many folks. Certainly the slot machine people have been all over this kind of research, and have consciously applied it to their designs. I doubt that knowing that would help after the fact, but it's something that children should be taught the same way they explain why nicotine is addictive, and what tar does to your lungs.

I wouldn't worry too much about teaching them poker per se though, because
like most games, it does teach some useful skills, in particular training them to think about why another player is betting the hand, looking for betting patterns, getting a really good gut feel for the way probability works, are i suspect something that will be very useful long term. It's not that you can readily escape from some kind of gambling activity in our society, so if they end up understanding why there are professional poker players, and no professional roulette players, they'll be in pretty good shape.

[WDC]

MY Mom taught and my friends and me how to play 7 card stud during our Confirmation classes. Its alright to teach them. I play with my 10 year old all of the time. He sits and watches me play on the internet and we discuss hands all of the time.
I bought a Hoyle Vegas program that has limit holdem and he can beat it pretty regurally. The kids are going to play so it is best to teach them.

[mshalen]

My kids (ages 8 and 11) love sitting with me and playing poker on the computer. To them it is just another card game that they mix in with war, garbage, solitare ... Both kids are involved in school, play sports, have friends and do all the things normal kids do. If they were becoming addicted to poker then I would get concerned.

The way I see being a parent is to monitor/introduce new things to your kids, put them in their proper context and try your best. When i think back to college the kids that were the wildest biggest screwups were the kids that had parents who never gave them an opportunity to manage themselves and have a little responsibility.

The gist of this is: they have had an introduction and will probably move on to something else that interests them.

[marsvolta619]

Yes, it's good to teach them about poker, but how about money management? Use some of the math teaching time on that: how to budget, etc etc. Remember, most poker players aren't winners. Most, if not all, didn't start out as winners. If you're going to "teach" them how to play, teach them the lifestyle of most gamblers, cause like Ed said, poker IS gambling

[BoogerFace]

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The more that I write on this the more clear the analogy between sex education and gambling education seems appropriate.

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I agree as long as it is non-praticipatory. I could see supplying appropriate reading material or asking them if they want to talk about it.

I mean, you wouldn't have sex with your kids right? Or watch porn with them? Or get them drunk so that they'll know how to handle their liquor?

I think the problem with kids as young as yours that playing poker legitimizes the whole thing. I'd personally be afraid that I might be planting the seeds for compulsive gambling.