Law school reqs....

[hotsauce615]

About to finish up college at a State University in New York, just one more year. I double majored in Mass Comm and Communication studies. After interning at a news station and working at one, the pay is too low and it's not as enjoyable as I thought it'd be. I know friends who have taken the LSATS with an english major, well I was thinking if I study my ass off for it, (I'm a bright fellow, at least I think I am), then I could make a reasonable law school. However will my majors and school play a major roll in wheter or not they accept me with a good score on the LSATS? I was thinking something like a copyright lawyer etc etc, so I might stay in the media business, but wear a suit and make a lot more money.

[ihardlyknowher]

Majors matter very little for Law School admission. They sometimes matter for getting a job after school. I had several employers tell me they gave me an interview because I had a "real" major in college.

Also, it is very difficult to "study" for the LSAT. It is largely a test of logical reasoning - either you have it or you don't. But, you can take a lot practice tests and become comfortable with the format and type questions asked.

Finally, set yourself apart in your essays when applying to law school. Don't write some generic BS about how you want to be a lawyer to help people and make a good living. Unless you have some specific interesting story something like your brother is blind and you want to be a lawyer to advocate for the rights of the blind.

Most importantly, do something you love. Being a lawyer is tedious if you don't love it. Trust me, I know this all to well. But just because you go to law school, does not mean you have to be a lawyer. It is a great general education.

[Claunchy]

It makes virtually no difference to law schools what you major in. The two most important factors to getting in are simply GPA and LSAT score. Things like extracurriculars and good rec letters might be able to nudge you over the top if you're borderline, but basically it's just GPA and LSAT.
Good luck.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
It makes virtually no difference to law schools what you major in. The two most important factors to getting in are simply GPA and LSAT score. Things like extracurriculars and good rec letters might be able to nudge you over the top if you're borderline, but basically it's just GPA and LSAT.
Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Law school admissions are 70% LSAT, 20% GPA, 10% other.

[hotsauce615]

Thanks guys! Got my gpa hanging out at 3.7 which is a miracle after so much drinking. I will go pick a book of practice tests up and see what I got. For a while I thought i'd hate that field, but I keep finding myself liking classes like freedom of speech, mass media law, etc etc so maybe I do like it /images/graemlins/confused.gif Thanks for the info guys

[mantasm]

All that really matters to most schools is your GPA and LSAT.

The LSAT is a pretty learnable test. The guy above me said as long as you have good reasoning skills you'll do fine, but that's not really true. Figuring out how to do each type of question really helps a lot and is pretty important. I just bought a couple books and looked over them, but a course wouldn't be a bad idea. Oh, and remember most law schools average your LSAT attempts, so don't just figure you'll take it cold and then study and retake if you do poorly.

[lucas9000]

which suny? i went to esf.

[hotsauce615]

Oneonta... heh i know I'm going to get the obligatory Stoneonta comment eventually

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

Alright, when you say any major, have you ever seen anyone with their undergrad in engineering go into law? I would think there'd be plenty of opportunity for someone with an engineering degree, but I don't envision a whole lot of people doing this. I ask because my wife has mentioned interest in doing this. Her BS is in Civil Engineering. I really find it quite unlikely that this will ever happen, but she's curious.

[mantasm]

I have an ee degree, I'll be starting in the fall. I knew several guys in undergrad who planned to go into law.

[BeerMoney]

Why don't you look for the answers to these questions here: discussion board. (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org)

That should help.

PS.. GPA and LSAT's are what's most important.

I don't recommend law school if you're just doing it cause you don't know what else to do with your life. Which seems the case as you don't know the answers to the questions you're posing.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

How long exactly does it take once you get into law school to get out and be in a position where you're back working full-time and earning a decent salary?

[mantasm]

I'd say it depends on the quality of your school and how well you did. You could do well at a good school in a major market and be guaranteed a 125k/year job by the beginning of your 3rd year or it could take a while. I'm not too familiar with the job search process yet though.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

That's not too bad - 3 years? Hey, Lucas. What's the market like for lawyers in Denver?

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not too bad - 3 years? Hey, Lucas. What's the market like for lawyers in Denver?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what it is like in Denver, but in general the market for intellectual property lawyers with engineering experience is great. You might even be able to find firms willing to pay for your law schooling while you work for them.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, when you say any major, have you ever seen anyone with their undergrad in engineering go into law? I would think there'd be plenty of opportunity for someone with an engineering degree, but I don't envision a whole lot of people doing this. I ask because my wife has mentioned interest in doing this. Her BS is in Civil Engineering. I really find it quite unlikely that this will ever happen, but she's curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went to law school with a lot of engineers and they always has the most job offers (as patent attorneys). In fact, they were often paid a premium starting salary.

It takes 3 years from when you start law school to be working again. If you go to a first-tier law school, you can often get a summer job making $30K+ for the summer for doing next to nothing.

[hotsauce615]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you look for the answers to these questions here: discussion board. (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org)

That should help.



PS.. GPA and LSAT's are what's most important.

I don't recommend law school if you're just doing it cause you don't know what else to do with your life. Which seems the case as you don't know the answers to the questions you're posing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm really at a crossroads in my life, and my current career choice isn't what I want it to be. I have parents willing to put me through grad school, and honestly law school seems EV+ as opposed to broadcasting or communication studies.


Btw just sat down and took a few practice questions and did real well, and spoke to a friend who's taking the test in October and I'm going to talk more to him about it.

[tek]

My son went to Kaplan to "study" for the LSAT. Study as in getting practice with the format of each section and critiques on writing the essay section of the LSAT.

It was expensive, but well worth it. He felt it prepared him better than reading study guides from a bookstore on his own.

He took some kind of business contracts/business law class as an undergrad which helped greatly as a 1L.

He starts his second year this fall.

[Matty]

From the practice tests I've taken, I can tell I'd do very well on the LSAT, but my GPA is 3.3. Is this out of range?

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
From the practice tests I've taken, I can tell I'd do very well on the LSAT, but my GPA is 3.3. Is this out of range?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not Harvard material. But if you do well enough on the LSATs you could get in almost anywhere else.

[mantasm]

It depends on what your goals are. You're only almost definitely out at the harvard/yale/stanford. If you get the lsat up into the 170's you'll have a good shot at making it into the lower ranked top schools. As long as you're above 160 you'll get in at an ok school. There are law schools that will take just about anyone but you wouldn't want to go to them.

People's College of Law (http://peoplescollegeoflaw.edu/photos/pages/2004_0331_185511AA_JPG.htm)

[Matty]

Notre Dame maybe? =D

(it's something like 20th ranked)

[mantasm]

You can mess around with the calculator at http://chiashu.com/lsat.html

It says you have a 70% shot at ND with a 172, 50% with a 169. It should still be pretty accurate, but admissions are probably a little more competitive than in fall 2003. You can pm me if you have any questions about anything, I'll be a 1L at texas in the fall.

[webmonarch]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't recommend law school if you're just doing it cause you don't know what else to do with your life. Which seems the case as you don't know the answers to the questions you're posing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how many people here are actually lawyers or law school graduates. I am a recent law school graduate who just sat for the bar. Let my share the folowing advice which is free, accurate, and really ought to be followed:

If you go to law school without working in a legal setting for several years you are a complete fool.

I worked for DOJ for a little under two years before I wnt to school. I went to a good school (Top 20) and I can't tell you how many people who went spent $100k to do something they had no idea whether they'd like or not. Keep in mind that these are near the cream of the crop people. Many can't wait to get out of it.

Furthermore, 90% of the people who hate it now could have avoided the whole thing but just thinking it through in advance.

You may like it, and think its cool. Many do. Then, they have to work in it on a day to day basis. Then its not so cool. Liking an academic discussion about copyright law is one thing, and working on it is quite another.

Finally, the assumption that all lawyers wear suits and make a lot of money is about as ignorant an assumption I have ever heard. This statement alone makes your sitatuion very clear to me.

I don't mean to be harsh, but you seriously need to think this through very carefully. GET A JOB in the legal field before you even THINK about going to law school.

Maybe you'll be lucky and like it through and through, but a little due diligence will save you a TON of time, money, and agony.

Finally, remember that NO ONE thinks that they'll be the person that doesn't like it, or that won't succeed in school, or who won't pass the bar, or whatever. Don't be that person. Be one of the smart ones.

[webmonarch]

[ QUOTE ]
I went to law school with a lot of engineers and they always has the most job offers (as patent attorneys). In fact, they were often paid a premium starting salary.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. Patent attorneys are significantly better off long term (as long as you love patent law, cause that's all you'll do or be hired for).

[ QUOTE ]
If you go to a first-tier law school, you can often get a summer job making $30K+ for the summer for doing next to nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely not correct. I was at a Top 20 (so, significantly higher than the general top tier) and about 30% of our school had such jobs (so not "often"). This would obviously be lower for lower ranked schools, and higher for higher ranked. Unless you're at Harvard, Yale, Stanford or another Top 5 these types of jobs are most certainly not guranteed.

I don't mean to be the law school Nazi or anything, but the misinformation for new applicants is really outlandish sometimes.

[Matty]

For a polisci and psych double major living in Indiana- what types of jobs would you recommend to get a good feel for the legal profession? I know I should probably ask an advisor about this, but here you are and my advisors are idiots.

how about if I was looking to get a good feel for what a patent attorney does?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
For a polisci and psych double major living in Indiana- what types of jobs would you recommend to get a good feel for the legal profession? I know I should probably ask an advisor about this, but here you are and my advisors are idiots.

how about if I was looking to get a good feel for what a patent attorney does?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll pile on here too... how about if you're already out of school and working full-time as a civil engineer and can't really go get some law internship type job for a couple years to check it out first?

[peachy]

some law schools actually look to take other people who did well on the LSAT with majors besides law over those who majored in law...this is what i was told by a number of law advisors when i was looking into law school

[hotsauce615]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't recommend law school if you're just doing it cause you don't know what else to do with your life. Which seems the case as you don't know the answers to the questions you're posing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how many people here are actually lawyers or law school graduates. I am a recent law school graduate who just sat for the bar. Let my share the folowing advice which is free, accurate, and really ought to be followed:

If you go to law school without working in a legal setting for several years you are a complete fool.

I worked for DOJ for a little under two years before I wnt to school. I went to a good school (Top 20) and I can't tell you how many people who went spent $100k to do something they had no idea whether they'd like or not. Keep in mind that these are near the cream of the crop people. Many can't wait to get out of it.

Furthermore, 90% of the people who hate it now could have avoided the whole thing but just thinking it through in advance.

You may like it, and think its cool. Many do. Then, they have to work in it on a day to day basis. Then its not so cool. Liking an academic discussion about copyright law is one thing, and working on it is quite another.

Finally, the assumption that all lawyers wear suits and make a lot of money is about as ignorant an assumption I have ever heard. This statement alone makes your sitatuion very clear to me.

I don't mean to be harsh, but you seriously need to think this through very carefully. GET A JOB in the legal field before you even THINK about going to law school.

Maybe you'll be lucky and like it through and through, but a little due diligence will save you a TON of time, money, and agony.

Finally, remember that NO ONE thinks that they'll be the person that doesn't like it, or that won't succeed in school, or who won't pass the bar, or whatever. Don't be that person. Be one of the smart ones.

[/ QUOTE ]


Definitely, awesomes advice. I'm going to spend the next few months really learning about the different fields and talking to friends involved in them. I didn't wake up this morning and go, "Oh snap I wanna be a Lawyer" My major has bottlenecked my intelligence greatly. I work at a news station now and make roughl 15$ an hour to do extreme amounts of stressful work that I don't even find enjoyable anymore. News and media is one of those fields that sounds real exciting on paper, but the reality is that it's a business that happens to revolve around television. I can make more money playing poker than what's happening now. I have 3 friends who have graduated similar to me and are stuck in ruts, honestly I'm afraid and it seems that law would be a great way to better use my head and reap better rewards.

Great advice though, definitely important to know how cold the water is before you jump right in.

[Lazymeatball]

[ QUOTE ]
some law schools actually look to take other people who did well on the LSAT with majors besides law over those who majored in law...this is what i was told by a number of law advisors when i was looking into law school

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean they majored in Law in undergrad? I didn't know such a major existed, is it similar to majoring in Government or PoliSci?

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
some law schools actually look to take other people who did well on the LSAT with majors besides law over those who majored in law...this is what i was told by a number of law advisors when i was looking into law school

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean they majored in Law in undergrad? I didn't know such a major existed, is it similar to majoring in Government or PoliSci?

[/ QUOTE ]

i group anything law related under LAW like legal studies

[shadow29]

I'm considering going to law school in the future but not to be a lawyer. Rather, my goal is to work in politics as like a legislative director for a senator or congressman.

What are your thoughts on people going to law school with no intention of being a lawyer? (My parents are both lawyers and I worked in their office a couple summers and pretty much hated it. But I think that understanding the law will help tremendously in making the law.)

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]
From the practice tests I've taken, I can tell I'd do very well on the LSAT, but my GPA is 3.3. Is this out of range?

[/ QUOTE ]

My story:

2.8 GPA
168 LSAT
Those are not typos.

Went to a second-tier law school, ranked around 50th. Made law review. Will be making a sizeable salary next year.

YMMV.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For a polisci and psych double major living in Indiana- what types of jobs would you recommend to get a good feel for the legal profession? I know I should probably ask an advisor about this, but here you are and my advisors are idiots.

how about if I was looking to get a good feel for what a patent attorney does?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll pile on here too... how about if you're already out of school and working full-time as a civil engineer and can't really go get some law internship type job for a couple years to check it out first?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just watch a couple episodes of law and order and you should be fine.

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]

Just watch a couple episodes of law and order and you should be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

L&O is great for the Crim Pro questions on the NY Bar.

It sucks for Evidence questions.

[Mr. Zero]

[ QUOTE ]
If you go to law school without working in a legal setting for several years you are a complete fool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advice is dead-on, but I disagree with this statement. I had a great prof in undergrad who taught his law classes in a manner similar to law school classes. I had him for three semesters and felt adequately prepared and informed about what law school and the practice of law would be like. I enjoyed law school and look forward to starting up in a few weeks.

But while I don't think it's a requirement to actually work in the legal field, it certainly is critical to have some understanding of what you're getting yourself into. And do some quick calculations based on your estimated debt.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you go to law school without working in a legal setting for several years you are a complete fool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advice is dead-on, but I disagree with this statement. I had a great prof in undergrad who taught his law classes in a manner similar to law school classes. I had him for three semesters and felt adequately prepared and informed about what law school and the practice of law would be like. I enjoyed law school and look forward to starting up in a few weeks.

But while I don't think it's a requirement to actually work in the legal field, it certainly is critical to have some understanding of what you're getting yourself into. And do some quick calculations based on your estimated debt.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mean any disrespect, but it seems like you haven't even gotten to the part where his advice is critical - the actual job.

[arod15]

160 is the bare min to get into a good top 60 school assuming 3.7 GPA but no worries 3.5 and 155 ish will get you into a 2nd tier school. Be sure cause law school is tough. Im prob going to go next year....

[webmonarch]

[ QUOTE ]

For a polisci and psych double major living in Indiana- what types of jobs would you recommend to get a good feel for the legal profession? I know I should probably ask an advisor about this, but here you are and my advisors are idiots.

how about if I was looking to get a good feel for what a patent attorney does?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the first thing is that, like me, you did not have a technical major in college. In order to pass the patent bar you need to have a technical undergrad major OR pass a reciprocal test which, I assure you, is not as easy as calculating poker odds. Google "patent bar" and you'll find more information on this.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll pile on here too... how about if you're already out of school and working full-time as a civil engineer and can't really go get some law internship type job for a couple years to check it out first?

[/ QUOTE ]

As for experience, something as simple as volunteering for a public interest law firm on weekends is worlds better than nothing at all. The best thing you can do is to really DO THE WORK, however it comes.

[ QUOTE ]
some law schools actually look to take other people who did well on the LSAT with majors besides law over those who majored in law...this is what i was told by a number of law advisors when i was looking into law school

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, technical majors tend to get a bit of a "bonus" over those with liberal arts majors, which are a dime a dozen for law school admissions offices.

[ QUOTE ]
News and media is one of those fields that sounds real exciting on paper, but the reality is that it's a business that happens to revolve around television.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, law is very similar, except it revolves around money. Not much better. This is the reason I posted in this thread in the first place. ;-)

[ QUOTE ]
What are your thoughts on people going to law school with no intention of being a lawyer? (My parents are both lawyers and I worked in their office a couple summers and pretty much hated it. But I think that understanding the law will help tremendously in making the law.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind it, but I would REALLY recommend that you consider a MPP (Masters of Public Policy) first. It's better suited to what you want to do, and skips stuff from law school that is completely unrelated to legislation and the like. I used to work on Capitol Hill in Senate member office, and most "big dogs" (Legilative Directors, Cheif of Staffs) had MPPs or similar masters degrees as opposed to law degreee.

[ QUOTE ]
My story:
2.8 GPA
168 LSAT
Those are not typos.
Went to a second-tier law school, ranked around 50th. Made law review. Will be making a sizeable salary next year.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good for you. You were almost certainly in the Top 10-15% of your class. So, for every one of you there are 9 people who aren't in your situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Your advice is dead-on, but I disagree with this statement. I had a great prof in undergrad who taught his law classes in a manner similar to law school classes. I had him for three semesters and felt adequately prepared and informed about what law school and the practice of law would be like. I enjoyed law school and look forward to starting up in a few weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you starting in a few weeks? Law school? A job? What?

[ QUOTE ]
And do some quick calculations based on your estimated debt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Even better, ask yourself what your situation may be if you are not able to get a $125k/year job. What will you be paying for years to come? And don't do it quick. Do it slow and meticulously. take it seriously, and decide if its worth it.

Look, I don't mean to dissuade anyone. I DO want to disssuade people from going into something that is a serious investment in time, money, and life direction. Law school is not a bad choice for people who know its best for their needs and who have done their research. Its the exact opposite for people who are just doing it for something to do and have no clue about the profession.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
Harvard, Yale, Stanford or another Top 5

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I meant by first-tier.