What is the best way for a full game player to learn to play short-handed?

[Kevin T]

Hey,
What is the best way for a winning full game player to learn to beat the short-handed game. I have read what little short-handed information is out there. Should I just put in some time at the .50 cent games and move up gradually? Any words of advice from the players who have made the transition?

[RiverMel]

One very important factor to keep in mind is that observing your opponents becomes much, much more important. The same situations come up over and over again, and you'll be facing them against the same opponents. Because of this you really need to know how your opponents react in various scenarios.

[tewall]

The material in HEFAP21 is very good, although there's not a lot of it. There's also some very good concepts in it that are stated very tersely, almost cryptically, so it lends itself to very careful reading.

It's good to think a lot about the game. You can play a little bit, and think through the situations that came up so you better understand them. The other poster was right that the same situations come up over and over again. In particular you want to consider how to handle mediocre hands, so you get them so often.

There are free money games you can play. Free money shorthanded games are not as terrible as free money full ring games as the strategy of the players is not so wrong from correct strategy as in full ring games, and you can practise your skills of observance as well as have scenarios come up which are worth thinking about.

[Robk]

Hey Kevin, here's one piece of advice. When making the transition, I had a problem that I think
is fairly common. You hear so often "you have to loosen up", that you take it too far. Keep
keep in mind that you are loosening up from about 15% or so in a ring game- which most
people don't adhere to. The average player probably plays 30-35% or so of his hands in a
ring game- which is pretty close to what you should be doing in a 5 handed game barring
unusual circumstances (ie very aggressive players). But the hands you want to be playing
shorthanded are different, ie in a ring game you'd be hardpressed to find a time to play KTo,
but 44 or T9s could be played under many circumstances. In sh play the reverse is often true.
You should check out pokerroom.com's evstats, and look at what hands are +ev in what
positions. I hope that helped, good luck.

[KSU78]

Tewall,

I have a different problem. How can I regain my full-game abilities after playing so much heads up and short-handed games? Honestly, my heads up game is probably the strongest. But it is difficult for me to play a in full game now. I get bord easy. I play way too loose. I just don't have the fun that I have drawing someone down to $0 heads up.

The discussions that we had last year about position versus starting hands was very useful in my short-handed strategy. That is a major departure from the full ring game position-starting hand requirements. Also, some of the old post on RGP were very helpful in understanding heads up play. It is very important for the heads up player to change strategies on a dime. The main thing is to control the betting, either directly or indirectly, aggressively or passively.

KSU78

(Then again, why would I ever want to play in a full game when there is so much more money to be made heads up and short-handed?)

[rr2000]

Please don't suggest 'learning' from play money games. Turbo hold'em may be a better option. But microlimit games are far better - UB has 0.01/0.02 (6 handed) and Planet 0.25-0.50 fyi.
HPFAP short-handed chapter is a must read.

KSU78: *ROTFL*

[KSU78]

I had minimal experience playing heads up in casinos. I happened to come across a RPG post about a guy who won $6500 one morning (a couple of hours). I though to myself, "Wow! That is a lot of money to win!" The guy was playing $20-40 online at Paradise Poker. But, mainly, he was playing heads up. How can I do that? So, I started using Turbo Holdem heads up. I was not impressed with the play of any of the profiles. They were really horrible. May be I have an older version of Turbo Holdem? But they were terrible. So, I went to Pokerroom.com and started playing with the play money. My bankroll was consumed by living expenses and I had no extra money and I was unemployed. Get the picture? I have turned the $1000 in funny-money into $120,000 with most of it coming from heads up $100-200 action. At Pokerroom.com, one must earn the right to sit at a $100-200 table. That was very helpful because it cuts down on the fools that come to play. I also managed the bankroll by playing at the limit that I had at least 200 bbs. I learned a lot from that experience. I still go play with the funny-money there every once in a while for practice before I go to a $5-10 or $10-20 real money heads up game. So, yes, based on my experience, I would say go to a play money if you must to work up to the upper limits. Treat it like real money and play within the bankroll.

[rr2000]

> At Pokerroom.com, one must earn the right to sit at a $100-200 table.

Can you explain that? I played at pokerroom with play money long time ago. Maybe at 10-20 (5max). It was like a no fold'em game then (as do most play money games).

[KSU78]

One gets $1000 in funny money. However, the minimum buy-in on a $100-200 table is $5000.

[RiverMel]

KSU,
You wouldn't happen to remember the title of the thread you mentioned (position v. starting hands in short-handed play), or have a link to it, would you? If not, what was the gist of the discussion? Thanks.

[KSU78]

Here are a couple of links:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=114783& page=&view=&sb=&o=

http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=114812& page=&view=&sb=&o=

[tewall]

Thanks for posting those old threads. I had a kick re-reading them!

There's no doubt a full ring game requires much more patience. It's also much more mathematically driven in many cases. (that is, in a lot of decisions psychological aspects don't come into play).

But there are challenges that full ring play has that make it more difficult than heads up. For example, heads up you only have to worry about how one person plays. Playing HU should have greatly improved your ability to gauge your opponents. You could take a full ring game as a challenge to figure out how *all* the opponents play as precisely as possible, as if they were HU opponents. That challenge might help keep you from getting bored.

BTW if finally dawned on me what KSU78 meant. All this time I had been looking at it is if it were R2D2 or 3CPO.

[rr2000]

still cracking my heads. What's KSU78?

[RiverMel]

Kansas State University, class of 1978?

[KSU78]

BSNE
KSU78

[n1stunnor]

Raise....Raise....and Re-Raise.

[KSU78]

One of the post embedded in this thread said something about playing more hands in a short game as one would play in a full game. It got me to thinking. I tend to play a tight short-handed game. I really don't play many more hands, if any, as I do in a full game as I do in a five-handed short game. However, I have little consideration as to position when I play them. In a full game, I would estimate that I play 12% of all starting hands but I weight position as to if they are indeed a playable hand. Like they say, I know when I played a hand out of position because of the feeling in my stomach after someone raises behind me. So, in a short five-handed game, I am playing the same hands as in a full game but more frequently.

[lefty rosen]

yeah pokerroom has an excellent shorttable game with rake deducted and everything. You must not have fear in a shorttable game and be willing to bet second pair in bad position. Also expect the bad players to play really bad ie call any two suited on a raise and chase anything down, but in the long run you will win out. The stats addup faster in a shorttable game. Infact most of the pro players on most sites prefer shorttable games because of this.

[Michael Davis]

While play money big games are handholding contests, you can often find decent players at the play money heads up games on Paradise. Pride is on the line in these 1v1 contests, so for many there is something to play for. If you select your opponents carefully, you can get good games and some education for no cost.

-Mike