Ethics/Hand shielding

[Toro]

Occasionally I'm seated next to someone who does a poor job of shielding his hole cards. Do any of you think it is unethical to look at this persons hole cards? My view is that if the person is totally careless and I can see his cards with little to no effort then there is no moral or ethical dilemma for me to use the information. However if the person is attempting to shield his hole cards but isn't doing it perfectly, then I think it is wrong to make a concerted effort to see his cards.

[oddjob]

personally i am not a cut-throat kinda player. i would let the person know discreetly that you can see his cards when he looks, and leave it to him/her to make a better effort at hiding them.

but if they want to carelessly flash their cards, then peak away i guess. it's their screw up, if they were warned.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bull:

That's the way I see it. If their cards are well exposed, it's okay for you to use that information. If you have to make an effort to see their hand, then I view it as wrong. Remember, the first rule of poker is to protect your hand.

best wishes,
Mason

[brad]

if youre not comfortable with talking to person about exposing their hand you can always just put up your hand to block your line of sight in a very obvious way.

this makes it other peoples problem (ie the people on other side of table who cant see will raise a fuss because they dont have same amount of info that you do or might) and relieves you from any and all responsibility.

[Mikey]

I was playing yesterday and I was seated in seat 7, seat 6, would lift up his hole cards and I saw them everytime, I wasn' stretching my head over to see them, but I could see them with a turn of my eyes.

Now what did I do about this. I'll tell you what I did.

I picked up KQh, and I saw that he limped in with AJh, I folded.
After a few limpers I had Ad7d, he careless looked at his cards and had 7sJd. I folded my hand.

I saw the guy call a raise cold with AA on the button, thankfully for me, i had garbage in the SB.

You know, I'm one person who is all for the rules of poker, and I don't like to see anyone get cheated or taken advantage of, but I'm sorry: If this guy is going to lift his hole cards too high, I'm going to look. It's nice when you have more information than anyone else.

This is when it's wrong: When you are leaning your head over and trying to make an effort to look, by either ducking your head down or raising your neck.

But if you just turn your eyes and see his cards I don't see anything wrong with that.

That's the way I look at it.

[brad]

you realize other players are going to be upset at you for this. if theyre not or this is part of your 'game plan' then i guess no biggie.

real answer i guess is that its up to other players (besides you) to stop it.

[rharless]

In general, the players who make this mistake are new players to the game, so usually if they are sitting next to me, I will say something. I often feel a responsibility to help those friendly but confused new players have a good time (not just because I want their money, but I really do want them to have a good time).

Then again, I play a friendly $5 game. When I play "bigger" games, I tend more towards exploiting whatever advantages accidental-flashers give me. And in my world, 6-12 is a big game. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

rh

[CrackerZack]

I'll give them a warning, just quitely tell them to be careful because I could see your cards on that hand. If they continue to do it, they've been warned.

[Andy B]

Used to be I would warn someone once or twice, and then he was on his own. More recently, I have come to believe that it is wrong to look at someone else's cards, no matter how little he is doing to conceal them. It is reasonable to use the information that you gain against him, I think. The problem is that you are also using the information that he provides against the other players in the game, and this is grossly unfair to them. It isn't their fault that your neighbor is showing you his cards. I now warn my neighbor every time I can see his cards. And if he says, "well don't look," I point out that it his duty to protect his hand. I am not bound by the rules not to look, but I do think that not looking is the right thing to do.

[Bob S.]

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

if u can see the cards w/o trying....it's o.k. if you make a concerted effort to look it's cheating.........if i know u can see the cards every time..i either watch u to see what u do or tell the guy/gal to protect their hand. simple. imo

[Al Mirpuri]

You should bore a hole in the back of your opponent's cards with your eyes in order to discover what his cards are. You should be wired up to an acquitance who is watching the game from a distance using a telescope and have him tell you what your opponent's cards are. If you can manage an out of body experience then you should allow your spirit to rise above the table and take a peek at your opponent's cards. You should ask your opponent to show you his cards whilst the hand is in progress as a courtesy. Failing all this, you can just call him done at the end, see his cards and muck your losing hand.

[Schmed]

to me it's angle shooting to some degree if you are looking at someones cards on purpose.

Last night I was in the 2 seat and when the guy in the 10 seat picked up his cards he flashed them to me. I was looking at the action and I could see him pick up A /forums/images/icons/club.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif I waited for him to fold his hand and got up, tapped him on the shoulder, and told him that he was flashing his cards.

Not only are you helping out someone who was clueless but you are protecting the game and yourself. For example, if he is careless and you don't see his cards but someone else does then you are the one with less info.

Like I said I will tell him every single time because it is the right thing to do on many levels

[Easy E]

if they are not obviously a veteran player (in which case they're probably doing it on purpose), I'll let people know one time that they are flashing.

After that, I'm not leaning over to read them, but I'm damn sure lookin'

[Schmed]

more so because I'm not going to bother with it....I did my duty and now it's up to the guy.......

[Easy E]