Flush Draw hand

[Pat Southern]

If preflop is bad, its not bad by much, so I'd rather not discusss that. I'm pretty sure the PFR is a 2+2er. The flop is what I'm mainly interested in discussing. I smooth called the original flop bet because I wanted to see what the PFR would do, if he were to raise and the pot was multiway then I'd be willing to get it allin, if he pushes and nobody else is in then I can fold and wait for a better spot. The raise came and the pot was multiway, but it came from an odd position, what should my line be now?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB (t1500)
UTG (t1210)
UTG+1 (t1850)
UTG+2 (t915)
MP1 (t445)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1095)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP3 (t1240)</font>
CO (t640)
Button (t1065)
SB (t1170)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, Hero calls t15, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t50</font>, SB calls t40, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t35, Hero calls t35, MP3 calls t35.

Flop: (t262.50) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t100</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls t100, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t400</font>, Button folds, SB calls t300, Hero...

[Pat Southern]

bump one time.

[Che]

You basically have no FE so this is a fairly straightforward calculation if you are considering pushing.

If you think the raiser will call and the SB will fold, you are not getting proper odds to draw to your flush (looks like at least one player had TP or better so your pair outs are no good IMHO).

If both call, you have odds to gamble IF neither opponent is on a flush draw. However, you're dead when someone has the nut draw and basically 0 EV if someone has a smaller flush draw (or even if both opponents just happen to have a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif).

Pushing is bad.

Calling OTOH is fine. Nearly 4:1 immediate pot odds and position so taking one off works for me. Occasionally, you'll hit and still go broke, but I think you'll get paid off enough when you hit the winner to more than make up for the occasional loss to the A-hi flush or boat.

I call.

Later,
Che

[durron597]

I fold, too often you are against Ax diamonds.

[woodguy]

Well since the SB called the flop raise you are getting edit: 3.8:1 to call on the flop, which very tempting.

Maybe I'm playing too much O8 lately, but when SB calls the raise and I'm not drawing to the nuts I let it go.

Now that MP3 raised and SB called, they are both pot commited and you should factor all their chips into the decision.

You have 945 left, they have a total of 1510 left that you can get if you win, and the pot is 1150 when it gets to you, so you are getting 2.81 for all your chips if (and they should) both call your push.

If it was to the nut flush, its a no-brainer push.

Since you have SB's cold call, you may be drawing dead.

Q9 sooted sucks.

This is the reason I muck non-nut draws when I don't have the button, too often you get good odds to blow off the rest of your stack only to find you are drawing dead.

You may be live, but I really don't like SB's cold call.

Maybe I'm playing too much O8.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Che]

Converter says pot is 262.5 on flop. It's actually 265, if my math is right.

900 more goes in on the flop and you have 300 to call. 3.88:1 immediate pot odds.

So, with ~600 behind, you're getting around 6:1 implied odds if you think you can get in against one opponent, ~8:1 if both go the distance.

If that's wrong, please identify the error. Some of the advice in the thread does not seemed to be based on the actual odds.

Later,
Che

[durron597]

Che-

We only get to see the turn here. I don't think we double up often enough when we hit the third diamond, and even if we do the SB is very likely to have Ax diamonds here. And you will rarely have both going the distance unless you are against the nut flush.

[Che]

I'm not saying we will double or triple up 100% of the time. I'm just giving the correct implied odds for when those events do happen so that the reader can assign his own weights.

Most importantly, I was pointing out that we are getting proper odds to call just to see one card. I mention the implied odds because I believe they offset our losses when the SB does indeed have Ax /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Later,
Che