Rifle - iron sights - what should I get. [Archive]

wacki

08-03-2005, 08:58 PM

I have a .308 Varmint with a telescope on it and a shotty. Now I want something a little more close range (i.e. iron sights/scopeless) that has more power than a .22 and doesn't scream "preparing for alien invasion". This makes woods stock guns ideal. Pops will freak out if I show him an M-16 but will grin from ear to ear if I show him a M-1 Garand. The gun is for me but I would like to take him shooting.

I want it to be accurate out to 100-150 yards. Anything greater will be nice but not necessary. I want to be able to carry a LOT of ammo. 5.56mm seems ideal, but Zeno's mini-30 talk has me wondering about 7.62x39. Anything in .308 Winchester is way too much. I can carry 100 rounds in cargo pockets with 5.56mm. Need a backpack to do that with .308 win. Semi-auto is also a must.

Unfortunately this doesn't leave much.

Right now I'm looking at:

The M-1 Carbine:
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_aom110.html

Mini-14

and possibly the mini-30 (not sure if I want the bigger ammo. I want to carry a LOT of bullets.).

I've heard the "Mini-14's aren't BAD, but they have barrels like a licorice whip with only marginally more accuracy." This makes me worry about the Mini-14. Any gun owners here have one?

jakethebake

08-03-2005, 09:04 PM

I've heard good about the mini-30 and mini-14. Also, if the Garand is a possibility check out The CMP. (http://www.odcmp.com/)

Personally I'd love to have a Garand. But i used to love my .22 Hornet I had when I was younger. Great varmint gun and might be what you're looking for.

ILL34GL3

08-03-2005, 09:06 PM

Build your own. (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782)
Not as hard as it sounds.

slamdunkpro

08-03-2005, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The M-1 Carbine:

[/ QUOTE ]

Run away screaming!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Mini-14

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice rifle - very accurate a lot of guys used them in the steel challenge because they pointed faster than the AR-15. The Mini-14 is accurate out to 200+ unless it’s really windy. If you’re worried about barrel whip, consider having it rebarreled with a heavy barrel. The sights are not nearly as good at those on an M1 or M/14. Have you considered an Aimpoint or other optical dot sight? They allow you to keep both eyes open and also to focus on the target instead of the front sight and are very quick.

The only drawbacks to the Mini-14 is the short stock (if you’re tall), the semi crappy trigger pull, and the fact that Bill Ruger is a gun rights sellout.

If you want something in-between .223 and 7.62 x 39 look at a BAR in .243. These are beautifully made and real tack drivers. The only drawback is that .243 ammo is not Mil Surplus, therefore expensive.

Zeno

08-03-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only drawbacks to the Mini-14 is the short stock (if you’re tall), the semi crappy trigger pull,....

[/ QUOTE ]

I am 5'7" and the short stock on my Mini-30 is perfect for me. Now that crappy trigger pull is also evident on the Mini-30. I have to squeeze the trigger down some, then get all set, then do a final squeeze. A pain if you want to be accurate at target shooting. I'm thinking of taking the rifle to a gunsmith and having the trigger pull smoothed out and made slightly easier to pull. Any advice?

Years ago I use to shoot a friends home built, Hawkin-style muzzle loader that had a set trigger and a 'fire' trigger. I loved that.

-Zeno

PorscheNGuns

08-03-2005, 10:53 PM

The larger wound created by a 7.62 round = faster blood loss, plus any half decent assault rifle should easily be able to hit an unaware human target at up to 700m if you know how to shoot.

-Matt

jgorham

08-04-2005, 12:39 AM

Uh Matt, will you be my friend?

Martin

08-04-2005, 08:13 AM

Since 7.62 x 39 is an option, how about an SKS in it's original wood stock option?

I used to have an M1 Carbine made by IBM. It was a really nice little gun, with the aftermarket 30 rnd mags it was lots of fun. Not sure how cheap ammo is for the carbine though. I guess for you guys in the USA its probably cheap and available.

Mini 14 is nice but the 556 version suffers from barrel whip. Rebarelling is an option but can be expensive. Some people have actually experienced an increase in accuracy just by cutting the barrel down a bit this actually aleviates the whip.

swede123

08-04-2005, 08:22 AM

Yes, Martin is right. If you want a simple, reliable rifle with iron sights look for a Yugoslavian SKS. You can get unused surplus military rifles from most East-bloc countries for not much money. A 7.62 SKS would set you back no more than 200 bucks, and would easily shoot 100-150 yards. But if you want to spend more money that is your perogative.

Swede

slamdunkpro

08-04-2005, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A pain if you want to be accurate at target shooting. I'm thinking of taking the rifle to a gunsmith and having the trigger pull smoothed out and made slightly easier to pull. Any advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only advice I can give you is take it to someone who has done a few. 3.5 to 4 pounds with no creep and a crisp break is about the best you'll get.

Phat Mack

08-04-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I'd love to have a Garand. But i used to love my .22 Hornet I had when I was younger.

[/ QUOTE ]

jakethebake

08-04-2005, 12:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The larger wound created by a 7.62 round = faster blood loss, plus any half decent assault rifle should easily be able to hit an unaware human target at up to 700m if you know how to shoot. -Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Define this. I'd call the AK a half decent assault rifle because you can beat the hell out of it and it'll still fire, but you ain't hitting anything 700m away with it. You'll be lucky at 200m. 700m is a long ways to hit a human target even for the M16 that's way more accurate. A good shot can do it, but your average shooter won't.

PorscheNGuns

08-04-2005, 01:31 PM

Thats because Europeans are pussies and call in airstrikes beyond 100m. Ok, in seriousness the M16 is far superior to the AK anyways, the AK only allows a slob some leeway and not have to clean his rifle. I would only call an AK half-decent because its so cheap and "reliable".

Right now in Afghanistan , various assault rifles are probably spraying down targets outwards of 1000m as it is, certainly an M16A2 is capable of this. With modern weaponry it really comes down to how much you want to spend.

-Matt

swede123

08-04-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thats because Europeans are pussies and call in airstrikes beyond 100m. Ok, in seriousness the M16 is far superior to the AK anyways, the AK only allows a slob some leeway and not have to clean his rifle. I would only call an AK half-decent because its so cheap and "reliable".

Right now in Afghanistan , various assault rifles are probably spraying down targets outwards of 1000m as it is, certainly an M16A2 is capable of this. With modern weaponry it really comes down to how much you want to spend.

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahha. Yeah, M16s are definitely "spraying" targets at 1000 meters. If you want to shoot 1000 meters you want something a little more potent than 5.56mm, trust me.

Swede

PorscheNGuns

08-04-2005, 01:51 PM

Hey Im just trying to keep things in context of the original post, we're most likely talking a Walmart parking lot here and a likely escape attempt

-Matt

wacki

08-04-2005, 07:57 PM

The SKS is an option. I'm a huge fan of reliability and being cheap isn't a bad thing either. I've heard from Zeno that the mini-30's are very accurate. I'm not sure if he was joking or not (as he was telling an intimidation joke), but that would be enough to push me to a mini-30 over an SKS. From what I've heard of the SKS, they aren't so accurate.

Zeno, just how accurate is your mini-30?

wacki

08-04-2005, 07:58 PM

The garand would be awesome, but the bullets are way too big. I wan't to be able to carry a lot in my pockets. .22 hornet isn't enough firepower.

wacki

08-04-2005, 08:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Im just trying to keep things in context of the original post, we're most likely talking a Walmart parking lot here and a likely escape attempt

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is a accurate iron sights target shooting weapon, cheap ammo for plinking, and Zombie protection rifle. You can never ever have enough Zombie protection. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for those who are talking warfare.... feel free to open your own thread.

On a side note... where is Ray Zee? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

cardcounter0

08-04-2005, 08:15 PM

The .30 cal M1 Carbine is a great way to spell F U N.

Ray Zee

08-04-2005, 11:39 PM

223 is your caliber. iron sights belong only on a 22 for plinking or a 458 mag. for giant animals. some still use a thuty thuty but not me with no sights.

you can have a 223 that looks like a sporting rifle or one taylored for your use which is best. look at the stuff in cabelas for an idea. bigger calibers are better for some things but not for carrying around.

or get one of each gun and bring the one for the job at hand.

Zeno

08-05-2005, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Zeno, just how accurate is your mini-30?

[/ QUOTE ]

At 100 yds very good and that being everything 'stock' including the ammo. At the Gun Club I go to there are some very good competition target shooters and they all have custom made barrels, reload there own ammo, and have other modifications done (trigger pull etc).

That said, going with the .223 for what you want is probably better than 7.62. See Ray's response, he is right on as usual.

-Zeno

Zeno

08-05-2005, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
or get one of each gun and bring the one for the job at hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray is one smart dude.

-Zeno

wacki

08-05-2005, 03:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
iron sights belong only on a 22 for plinking or a 458 mag. for giant animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa?!? Are you saying iron sights DON'T belong on a Mini-14 or a Garand? That can't be right.

Or does iron sights not mean what I think it means?

wacki

08-05-2005, 03:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or get one of each gun and bring the one for the job at hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray is one smart dude.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

He is and I'm working on my armory. I'll soon be up to 3 and my first gun was bought in January. Watch out Zeno, it won't be long before I'll out gun you! I think I'm going to get the Mini-14 for ammo reasons. I just hope the mini shoots well.

I also wish they had the M-1 Carbine in .223. That would be my dream rifle. I wonder why they don't make one. It amazes me how little selection there is in wood stock .223 semi's.

ILL34GL3

08-05-2005, 05:15 AM

Wood stocks aren't as fuctional as synthetic stocks, hence the lack of selection in the semiautos.

"I like a wood stock cuz my grandpappy would approve of it. Ding-a-dang-doo."

Don't let everyone else's uneducated, ill-conceived notions determine what you buy. Get an AR15, if you could only own(carry) one gun, this is the choice.

slamdunkpro

08-05-2005, 06:47 AM

The true effective range of the .223 is about 500 meters.

slamdunkpro

08-05-2005, 06:48 AM

Sights on the SKS are terrible.

slamdunkpro

08-05-2005, 06:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I also wish they had the M-1 Carbine in .223. That would be my dream rifle. I wonder why they don't make one.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reciever won't handle the pressure. A .30 carbine round puts out about 28,000 CpU (Copper pressure units) the .223 is about 55,000 CpU.

slamdunkpro

08-05-2005, 06:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...various assault rifles are probably spraying down targets outwards of 1000m

[/ QUOTE ]

Um no, an M60 maybe. 1,000 meters is about the limit of the effective range of the .308. When we were shooting NRA long range with M-14's (800, 900, & 1,000 yds) we'd sometimes find .308 bullets stuck in the cardboard target backers when we'd pull them down.

Now a .50 BMG will reach out and touch you at 2,000+ meters.

08-05-2005, 02:29 PM

When I was just a baby my mother told me, "son, always be a good boy and don't ever play with guns."

wacki

08-05-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wood stocks aren't as fuctional as synthetic stocks, hence the lack of selection in the semiautos.

"I like a wood stock cuz my grandpappy would approve of it. Ding-a-dang-doo."

Don't let everyone else's uneducated, ill-conceived notions determine what you buy. Get an AR15, if you could only own(carry) one gun, this is the choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I don't want an AR15. If I go that route I'm getting a G36. I will probably buy 15 more guns than I already have before I even think about getting an AR15.

2) I want a wood stock. I like the look of WWII style rifles.

3) I'd like to take other people with me. Everytime I bring a topic like this to an AR15 owner I get the same response. I don't understand why so many AR15 owners can't get it through their thick skull that it's 1000x easier to get someone to at least "TRY" shooting a gun when it doesn't look like your preparing for an alien invasion. Ask a girl who is nervous around guns to shoot skeet/trap and she will be fine. She can tell herself "it's a gentlemens sport" and she will open up. Ask her to go hunting with a bazooka and she will freak out. Why can't so many AR15 obsessed owners figure that out?

ILL34GL3

08-05-2005, 04:49 PM

AR15 owners are the ones with "thick skull"? It seems your friends that judge a gun by its appearance are the thick skulled ones. That's just unreasonable.

swede123

08-05-2005, 05:01 PM

Wacki,

There's nothing wrong with the more traditional looking rifles of the world. In fact, if you would ever need it to defend yourself or the ones you love I bet you'd have a much easier time being found not guilty by a jury if you used this http://www.2ndarmored.com/images/M1_Rifle_Garand.jpg

rather than this http://www.dlsports.com/home/ar15_large.jpg

Look at Springfield Armory (http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-m1a-stan.shtml) for a great selection of high quality M1 rifles with various features and prices.

Once again let me reiterate that you really should consider looking at an SKS as well.

Swede

ILL34GL3

08-05-2005, 05:12 PM

Aww man, enough with the SKS already. That's the biggest piece of crap gun I've ever owned. Someone said the sights suck on the SKS and they are exactly right.

swede123

08-05-2005, 05:20 PM

There are many different makers of SKS rifles. I agree that certain models and vintages were utter crap, incapable of shooting very straight, but there are also certain models that are plenty accurate out to 100 yards or so, with stock iron sights.

Obviously I'm not comparing one of these rifles which can be bought for 200 bucks to a newly manufactured Bushmaster or Springfield weapon, which will set you back five or ten times that amount. But you get what you pay for, and if you don't need to shoot sub-1 MOA groups why pay the extra cash?

Swede

Martin

08-06-2005, 02:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sights on the SKS are terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true and they are very difficult to adjust. Having said that mine was quite accurate. It was a war trophy and shot as straight as my friends out the box mini 14. The sites are better on the mini 14 though. If money isn't too much of an object then the Mini 14 is a better choice

Martin

08-06-2005, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I also wish they had the M-1 Carbine in .223. That would be my dream rifle. I wonder why they don't make one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like slamdunkpro said the action wouldn't hold together. There was talk in the mid 80's of someone tooling up to make a beefed up version but I think the cost of redesign was too much.

wacki

08-06-2005, 03:24 PM

Sights on the SKS are easy to replace. That is a non issue IMO.

wacki

08-06-2005, 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also wish they had the M-1 Carbine in .223. That would be my dream rifle. I wonder why they don't make one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like slamdunkpro said the action wouldn't hold together. There was talk in the mid 80's of someone tooling up to make a beefed up version but I think the cost of redesign was too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Martin

08-06-2005, 04:04 PM

If you do change them get a ghost ring. Unless ofcourse you like a v type site. Some do for close up shooting. With decent sites and a bit of work the SKS is great value for money.

SpearsBritney

08-06-2005, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Im just trying to keep things in context of the original post, we're most likely talking a Walmart parking lot here and a likely escape attempt

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

i love this!

DavidC

08-06-2005, 08:47 PM

Please excuse this Q from a guy who knows little about guns...

(First i have to buy a car, but afterwards I'd like to get into marksmanship with a rifle)

Is this for hunting or for marksmanship?

Would a 22 be accurate over this distance (due to light weight of round)?

100 rounds of ammo isn't that much... do you mean that you want to be able to carry all the ammo in clips, rather than an ammo box?

If so, do you really anticipate having to quickly fir 100 rounds? This doesn't make much sense to me. If you're going to war, your country will provide you with a better weapon (unless it's a civil war. /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

--Dave.

slamdunkpro

08-06-2005, 10:14 PM

Are you just looking for something to fool around with - nothing serious, just put some rounds down range and have fun?

wacki

08-07-2005, 04:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this for hunting or for marksmanship?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plinking, marksmanship, and Zombie protection.

[ QUOTE ]
100 rounds of ammo isn't that much... do you mean that you want to be able to carry all the ammo in clips, rather than an ammo box?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fun plinking gun that has the option of accurate marksmanship shooting at 100 yards.

A .22 is awesome for cheap ammo. The only problem with it is that it's range is limited and it's lacking in power. For targets and groundhogs less than a 50 yards away, it can't be beat.

As for war, the mini-14 is based off of the M 14. It is a very reliable rifle. The only problem is the barrel on it tends to overheat and warp, but that can be fixed. Do not underestimate the mini 14. It will still blow a 6" hole in you if it hits you.

DavidC

08-07-2005, 04:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Plinking, marksmanship, and Zombie protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, man. Everyone knows that if you really want to protect yourself from zombies you need a shotgun.

[ QUOTE ]
As for war, the mini-14 is based off of the M 14. It is a very reliable rifle. The only problem is the barrel on it tends to overheat and warp, but that can be fixed. Do not underestimate the mini 14. It will still blow a 6" hole in you if it hits you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh [censored], sir!

(Where's the Sgt Hartman gimmick account when you need it?)

Thanks for the explanation, though.

--Dave.

wacki

08-11-2005, 01:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking of taking the rifle to a gunsmith and having the trigger pull smoothed out and made slightly easier to pull. Any advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

From some of my gun nut friends:

http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/
Can also try:
http://www.shilen.com/index.htm
and:
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/
and:
http://www.gunaccessories.com/Mini1430/index.asp

wacki

08-11-2005, 01:50 AM

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/m14svcalac.htm

Zeno

08-11-2005, 02:09 AM

I have had my eye on a mini-14 that is on consignment in a gun shop. It is a 'military version' (flash guard and bayonet mount, different sight set up, I think,) formely used by guards at a state prison, the person got them through some special sale. They haven't sold in more than a year so the guy is reducing the price to $575 each (two are for sale). I may get one. Which means I will have both a mini-14 and a mini-30.

Thanks for all the links. Have them stored in favorites under my gun theme.

-Zeno

wacki

08-11-2005, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Which means I will have both a mini-14 and a mini-30.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really want to go shooting with you some day.

Talk2BigSteve

08-11-2005, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Im just trying to keep things in context of the original post, we're most likely talking a Walmart parking lot here and a likely escape attempt

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is a accurate iron sights target shooting weapon, cheap ammo for plinking, and Zombie protection rifle. You can never ever have enough Zombie protection. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for those who are talking warfare.... feel free to open your own thread.

On a side note... where is Ray Zee? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I win $50 from Wacki for the above based on this Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3108241&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) and the fact that member PorscheNGuns regestered on 4/20/05!!!

Big Steve /images/graemlins/cool.gif