SNG/HOH2 (M) question

[Lucy Alexis Liu]

Ok I'm tryng to implement "M" in my SNG's. I'm playing a few on Full Tilt (9 handed). When I get into the red zone and have to make a move, it often looks like this:

Blinds 100/200, 5 players left. Chips:

SB 3992
BB 2490
ME 1961
CO 3135
DB 1922

SB and BB posts 100/200, no antes. I'm UTG, with a hand (TT in this case). According to the Zone system in HOH2 (still reading), I'm in the red zone (all-in or fold) since my "M" is less than 6. But going all-in seems crazy? Risking my almost 2k for 300.

Any thoughts?

[ChoicestHops]

Dont focus on the zones featured in Harrington's book. For STT you want to learn ICM.

edit: to answer your question, this is a good move and +EV.

[Lucy Alexis Liu]

Oh, guess I'll have to check it out then. But are you saying that "M" is directly a bad idea in SNGs?

[ChoicestHops]

It's not a bad idea. It's a good general concept but I think ICM is more complex.

[junkmail3]

HOH2 is for MTT, general thought around here is that you should think of your stack in terms of BB.

Reading posts that have to do with bubble situations will prove useful.

The red zone for SnGs is when your stack is below 10xBB.

10-12xBB is yellowish/orangish.

12xBB and greater, you don't need to be thinking about getting all of your chips in at any given moment. You have time to think.

Your particular hand however, having less than 10xBB, with a great preflop hand would make this a push for me, much like it would in the Red Zone. You have 2K, but you are practially the short stack.

[junkmail3]

I also take too long to type and tend to over do it.

[Superfluous Man]

[ QUOTE ]
But going all-in seems crazy? Risking my almost 2k for 300.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all crazy. You have just about no room to work postflop with < 10x BB. Also, you're treating this like TT is a straight-up steal hand. It's not. It's a big freakin' hand.

[Matt R.]

I haven't read HOH2, but based on the "M" talk I've seen on here, he doesn't include average stack size in his calculations. Is this correct? In sng's, you very often have a low "M" but are still in fine shape because everyone at the table has a low "M". Not thinking of how healthy your stack is relative to the rest of the field is a mistake.

[skipperbob]

What else would you do w/ TT in this position?...Call?...Min-raise??...Fold?...None of those choices are as (+)EV as going allin...Allin may pickup the blinds w/o opposition which is not a bad result for TT....Allin will push out the blinds with the random "nothing" hands (what you want to happen)....Allin may get called by an inferior hand (what you want to happen)...Allin may get called by a superior hand (Yuk)...but just might "suckout"(what you want to happen)...by the time you get thru the blinds your stack will be even further crippled....GoForIt /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Lucy Alexis Liu]

Well yeah, I normally follow the 10xBB rule, but wanted to try the "M" theory/system/whatever (what is it exactly hehe).

[Lucy Alexis Liu]

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But going all-in seems crazy? Risking my almost 2k for 300.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all crazy. You have just about no room to work postflop with < 10x BB. Also, you're treating this like TT is a straight-up steal hand. It's not. It's a big freakin' hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I just happend to have TT there, I would have gone all-in with A5o or something as well =)

[boudge7]

In HOH2, he does talk about average stack size. He calls it "Q". However, he does say that when they are conflicting, M is more important. Here again this is a MTT strategy more than a STT strategy.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
What else would you do w/ TT in this position?...Call?...Min-raise??...Fold?...None of those choices are as (+)EV as going allin...Allin may pickup the blinds w/o opposition which is not a bad result for TT....Allin will push out the blinds with the random "nothing" hands (what you want to happen)....Allin may get called by an inferior hand (what you want to happen)...Allin may get called by a superior hand (Yuk)...but just might "suckout"(what you want to happen)...by the time you get thru the blinds your stack will be even further crippled....GoForIt /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you just post something resembling strategy? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif Wow, I'm pretty shocked /images/graemlins/shocked.gif! Now all you have to do is provide thoughts on a hand that is somewhat difficult to play, /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

As for the OP's questions about M. Really all it indicates is how your stack compares to the dead/forced $$ at the beginning of the hand. In Party Poker STTs there are never antes so it makes more sense to compare one's stack to the big blind rather than add up both blinds and then compare your stack. All M does is add up the antes and the blinds and then compare that number to your stack anyway.

Also someone also mentioned other players having shorter stacks than you. Harrington doesn't have like an algorithm for exactly how to play in every situation with whatever amount of M. He has guidelines and in his hand examples when he thinks through a hand, it is clear that one is supposed to be aware of everyone else's M and how that affects their play and thus, your play.

Even on Stars the antes never get all that big (and tables are short by then anyway) so coming up with M is still sorta silly and just knowing how many big blinds your stack is still is most helpful.

Yugoslav

[KingDan]

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But going all-in seems crazy? Risking my almost 2k for 300.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all crazy. You have just about no room to work postflop with < 10x BB. Also, you're treating this like TT is a straight-up steal hand. It's not. It's a big freakin' hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I just happend to have TT there, I would have gone all-in with A5o or something as well =)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am pretty sure pushing A5o sucks.

[Isura]

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But going all-in seems crazy? Risking my almost 2k for 300.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all crazy. You have just about no room to work postflop with < 10x BB. Also, you're treating this like TT is a straight-up steal hand. It's not. It's a big freakin' hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I just happend to have TT there, I would have gone all-in with A5o or something as well =)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am pretty sure pushing A5o sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I need ATo here.

[Uppercut]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'm tryng to implement "M" in my SNG's. I'm playing a few on Full Tilt (9 handed). When I get into the red zone and have to make a move, it often looks like this:

Blinds 100/200, 5 players left. Chips:

SB 3992
BB 2490
ME 1961
CO 3135
DB 1922

SB and BB posts 100/200, no antes. I'm UTG, with a hand (TT in this case). According to the Zone system in HOH2 (still reading), I'm in the red zone (all-in or fold) since my "M" is less than 6. But going all-in seems crazy? Risking my almost 2k for 300.

Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

1961/300 = 6.5, which puts you in the Orange zone. Still, this is an easy push.

PS You should be rooting for a call here, BTW.

[Lucy Alexis Liu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'm tryng to implement "M" in my SNG's. I'm playing a few on Full Tilt (9 handed). When I get into the red zone and have to make a move, it often looks like this:

Blinds 100/200, 5 players left. Chips:

SB 3992
BB 2490
ME 1961
CO 3135
DB 1922

SB and BB posts 100/200, no antes. I'm UTG, with a hand (TT in this case). According to the Zone system in HOH2 (still reading), I'm in the red zone (all-in or fold) since my "M" is less than 6. But going all-in seems crazy? Risking my almost 2k for 300.

Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

1961/300 = 6.5, which puts you in the Orange zone. Still, this is an easy push.

PS You should be rooting for a call here, BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have to also take into account # of players (5) so M is not 6.5