Asking to see mucked cards

I'm new to poker, and so far have been focusing on learning to play holdem. I have only gone to a cardroom to play a few times so far, and have been trying to follow the advice I have read and watch what starting hands people play to gauge their play. However, it seems like players almost never show their hands (even when they go to a showdown). It seems like one person turns over a strong hand at the end, and the other players involved muck. This makes it pretty much impossible to figure out the types of hands that they play.


I seem to remember reading somewhere that, if a hand goes to a showdown and one player mucks after the other shows, you can ask to see that player's cards. Is this true? Should I be doing this? Will everyone at the table get mad at me for asking to see their mucked cards? Should I just rely on the few times that the hands are close enough that everyone shows?

Not everyone will get mad at you. Just a lot of them. The people who don't get mad are the ones who do it though, so they don't count. :-) There have been threads about "I Want To See That Hand" (IWTSTH) before. You might want to check the archives. It's bad form. Don't do it. At best people will know you are a beginner, probably will think you are a total jerk. The rule exists as a means to prevent collusion. If you are new to poker and playing LL it is unlikely you will see any collusion. If you play higher you are unlikely to catch any with this rule. You might catch some soft play with it, but it will be rare and pretty obvious when it happens. Only invoke the rule if you actually suspect something wrong. And don't be paranoid. The times I have seen unethical play in low-limit were times I wouldn't need to see the hands to know something improper happened. They were also times where the players did it out of ignorance, not with full understanding of how the play was unethical. So I've never asked to see someone's hand for the purpose giving rise to the rule's existence. You probably won't either.


You can get a line on people's play without resorting to the awful IWTSTH rule. I think there should be a 1 or 2BB charge, payable to the person with the forcibly shown hand, to see a hand unless you can prove collusion after seeing it. That would serve all purposes of the rule and just about eliminate the awful practice. And players who got the fee wouldn't get as upset when some guy says IWTSTH!

What if they flash them to someone else, then muck 'em? Are they fair game then? I might ask to see them under that circumstance. Any body else?

It's not so bad then. I still don't ask, but see why others do in that situation. Recently a player I know well flashed me the unshown winning hand and another player asked about it. It didn't bother me then, except the guy used the obnoxious IWTSTH tone of voice; i.e. exhibited the righteous indignation of someone sticking up for fundamental rights in the face of massive oppression and government sponsored horror. I don't show my non-shown about-to-be-mucked hands to anybody ever. That makes things a lot easier. I don't think it's good to show one player and not all. But it's usually done by inexperienced players who mean no harm and don't win. So I don't worry about it.

I don't want to get in the habit of responding to my own posts, but there's one other thing. Usually when people share a hand it is a big one. You might not know exactly what it was, but you can be pretty sure it wasn't a bluff. There are exceptions, and Doyle wrote about one in one of his stories somewhere. But most people naturally won't show a bluff like this. If they show it, it will be face up so everone can see. Also see Caro's tell where a guy is showing his girlfriend a hand. He has something.

if yer really curious go ahead and ask. nothing wrong with it. after playing awhile youll know if someone is just calling to see what the bettor has. trying to catch a bluff because he missed his draw. if a bunch of guys start betting wild in a hand, i see no problem asking to see all called hands. as far as 'bad form', theres no style points on a table, however, dont overdo it. it can/will get annoying and slow up the game. youll hear others ask at times too. and if they show anyone else their hand, go ahead and ask, if yer that curious to where it wasnt obvious.

when i have a called hand on the river, i dont care if anyone asks to see it, they can see it anyways. another way of 'seeing' it, is ask the player, "2 pair huh?" or something. they may tell ya, low limit theyre more likely to tell ya the truth btw.


just some thoughts...


b

"as far as 'bad form', theres no style points on a table..."


There ARE style points.


You will be paid off more by people who like you. People who think you're a jerk are less likely to pay you off.


It's a good idea to try to get along with everyone. You DO get points for this, in the form of chips /images/smile.gif


Let someone else scream, IWTSTH! Trust me, SOMEONE at your table will.


Bobby

I would say that the players at the cardroom would get angry if you start doing this. The reason the rule about revealing hands is there is to guard against cheating. Nobody likes having their hand flipped up as it gives information to other players about their play style (which is why you want to do it!)


My advice would be to play a bit at one of the online sites. Paradise lets you request hand histories which show everyone's hand if they called on the river. I think most of the other sites offer the same feature.


Chris

if youve read any of the posts on how i treat players, youll know i try and treat em good. that said, theres nothing wrong with asking to see hands. just dont overdo it. on a small limit table, they wont tend to mind as much either. on a bigger limit, its a little more serious. if they think im a jerk cause on the turn i say, "i wanna see all called hands please." fuck em. as long as im not askin for it every other hand, or holdin up the game, its a right of anyone to ask.

as i stated earlier, as he gets better at realizing what people may have, hell be less curious.


on a side note, sometimes if they view you as a 'beginner', they sometimes tend to overplay their hands. because they think they can outplay the first timer. the benefit can go both ways.


the key is to not hold up the game. for example when i ask, i ask on the turn...AHEAD OF TIME so the dealer can handle it as theyre collecting cards.


b

There is a trick that one of the better players I know uses to see the other player's hand. Get the pot heads up with position. Raise on the flop or on the turn, depending on your hand, the texture of the board, etc...


Then check behind the player on the river with your bad and mediocre hands. The protocol is that the player in first position has to show his hand first. If you beats you, throw your hand in the muck lightening quick. If you win flip your cards over.