Poll -- What is Hero's error in this $33 hand [Archive]

Steve

08-03-2005, 12:46 PM

MP2 was a typical $33 player no signs of being crazy. MP1 is an idiot.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t910)
UTG (t2030)
Hero (t695)
MP1 (t700)
MP2 (t775)
CO (t952)
Button (t980)
SB (t958)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG calls t30, Hero calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 raises to t125, 3 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls t95, MP1 calls t95.

Flop: (t450) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets t300, Hero is all in, MP1 calls t570, MP2 calls t270.

Turn: (t1590) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
MP1 is all in, MP2 calls t5.

River: (t1595) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)

Final Pot: t1595

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jh Jd (one pair, jacks).
MP1 has 4c Ac (one pair, fours).
MP2 has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins t1595.

Maulik

08-03-2005, 12:49 PM

Calling PF is an option, a better one may be folding PF give the size of the call in relation to your stacksize.

On the flop, you can muck or push. I prefer mucking, it seems MP1 has a legitimate hand.

45suited

08-03-2005, 12:51 PM

You were destined to go broke on that hand my friend. Any way you play it, you're going broke. At least I am.

11t

08-03-2005, 12:54 PM

This is a trick question.

The second you see the flop you are going broke so your only option is just not seeing a flop which is prolly -EV.

Maulik

08-03-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a trick question.

The second you see the flop you are going broke so your only option is just not seeing a flop which is prolly -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, it would definately be -EV if the stacks were deeper, but w/ 800 chips, its not -EV to take a pass here.

45suited

08-03-2005, 12:58 PM

I think that your biggest error was getting dealt an underpair to the villain's kings. I'm going to guess that 90% of players go broke on this hand. IMO, not going broke means one of two things:

1) You're a world class player, or
2) You suck at poker.

Especially since you were a little short (695) when the hand started, I just don't see that you have a deep enough stack to get away from this.

nate_king1

08-03-2005, 01:02 PM

To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed. But almost a full table Call/Check/Fold for me.

ldavidjm

08-03-2005, 01:04 PM

Maybe its just me but folding PF after you've limped with jacks seems way too weak tight. Just because someone raises a couple limpers doesn't mean they have QQ-AA, in fact, they probably don't have QQ-AA. I agree with 45suited, if you don't go broke you're either awful or one of the top players there are.

nate_king1

08-03-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that your biggest error was getting dealt an underpair to the villain's kings. I'm going to guess that 90% of players go broke on this hand. IMO, not going broke means one of two things:

1) You're a world class player, or
2) You suck at poker.

Especially since you were a little short (695) when the hand started, I just don't see that you have a deep enough stack to get away from this.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I'd give up jacks in this spot. Does that mean I'm a world class player? Or a poker joke? Niether. If you can't get rid of jacks in this spot you might want to learn why you should. I've laid down Kings when and Aces flops
(NO BIG DEAL, I knew I was beat). You need to make good laydowns to beat SNGs and Poker. Simple as that.

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:05 PM

Originally calling preflop, and just flat calling the raise preflop were your mistakes IMO. You are too shortstacked to play JJ so weakly.

Mr_J

08-03-2005, 01:06 PM

I don't call the preflop raise. Early on in the 800 stacks I play JJ for cheap. With the way he bet preflop and that flop I expect to see qq+.

Jbrochu

08-03-2005, 01:07 PM

I would raise pre-flop. When the likely re-raise came from the K's, I would probably push unless this guy's been an absolute rock. If the K's flat called the pre-flop raise, I'm going broke after the flop.

nate_king1

08-03-2005, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe its just me but folding PF after you've limped with jacks seems way too weak tight. Just because someone raises a couple limpers doesn't mean they have QQ-AA, in fact, they probably don't have QQ-AA. I agree with 45suited, if you don't go broke you're either awful or one of the top players there are.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he did have it. Its not weak tight. It was his mistake to limp/call. It should of been bet/fold.

durron597

08-03-2005, 01:08 PM

Let's look at the preflop raise. If he is solid he either has big cards or has you beaten, with the possible exception of TT. So if you just call preflop, you probably won't get too much more action out of a hand that you beat, or he outflops you and then you don't want the action.

The problem is that you never gave him a chance to tell you if he has you beat. His continuation bet could mean anything.

I would fold preflop to the raise with these stack sizes. But if you're going to call, I would make a probe bet (t150 or so) and fold to a push. But I don't really like that line because you don't win enough the times he has big cards to make up for the amount you lose when you are crushed; the stacks are just not deep enough to get away from this post flop really.

Position is king. Fold preflop.

Steve

08-03-2005, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree, it would definately be -EV if the stacks were deeper, but w/ 800 chips, its not -EV to take a pass here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maulik are you saying if the stacks were DEEPER you'd be willing to play this a little farther (i.e. bet or call on the flop), but given the size of the stacks its either AI or fold on the flop, so you choose fold?

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:09 PM

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't get rid of jacks in this spot you might want to learn why you should. I've laid down Kings when and Aces flops (NO BIG DEAL, I knew I was beat). You need to make good laydowns to beat SNGs and Poker. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge difference between laying down kings when an ace flops and this scenario. Hero doesn't have enough of a stack to lay down an overpair to this flop.

I'll venture to guess for every "good laydown" you make in spots like this, you're giving up several pots and leaving a lot of money on the table. So when he called pre-flop, what kind of flop should he have been hoping for exactly? Trip jacks?

Sometimes you're just destined to go broke. This hand is one of them.

mmbt0ne

08-03-2005, 01:11 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
But he did have it. Its not weak tight. It was his mistake to limp/call. It should of been bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean he should raise/fold preflop or bet/fold the flop? Bet/folding the flop is AWFUL.

Tony Corbett

08-03-2005, 01:11 PM

Your poll omits my preference which would be to open with a push on the flop. By going for the check raise with your now small stack your opponent has great pot odds and would struggle to now find a fold on the flop. I want him to fold becuase if I don't hit a set with JJ I always want them to fold early in a tourney.

mmbt0ne

08-03-2005, 01:13 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I don't think I've ever limped UTG+1 with JJ. Maybe in late position after 6 or 7 limpers I could see making a case for limping and hoping for a good flop, but UTG+1?

Steve

08-03-2005, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Position is king. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I often feel like a tight player on this forum. Here's how I play the hand:

Raise pre-flop. If re-raised, I think that he can decide what to do at that point. I would never limp in this spot (level 2) especially since I have only 690 chips.

Once again, I'm amazed at how undervalued jacks are on this forum.

Jbrochu

08-03-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you curtains (and not just because you're so respected...), I hate it. Not only do I raise preflop, but I push to a re-raise which everybody must really, really hate.

I play at Stars though, and people playing the $33's will re-raise in this spot with hands like AQ, AJ, low PP, etc. enough to make pushing J's into the re-raise +EV in my opinion.

It sounds like at the Party $33's people are MUCH tighter.

pooh74

08-03-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes me want to vomit actually. I dont get it at all.

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:16 PM

Well also we are pretty shortstacked! I just don't understand how playing this way with JJ is so common, it just seems so terrible to me. Sometimes it at least has some merit, but in this situation I think it's just mindless.

pooh74

08-03-2005, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you curtains (and not just because you're so respected...), I hate it. Not only do I raise preflop, but I push to a re-raise which everybody must really, really hate.

I play at Stars though, and people playing the $33's will re-raise in this spot with hands like AQ, AJ, low PP, etc. enough to make pushing J's into the re-raise +EV in my opinion.

It sounds like at the Party $33's people are MUCH tighter.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not that PP is tighter, its that starting stacks are less so you are committing larger %s of stack any time you enter a hand. That aside,

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:17 PM

Depends but usually yes. Theze bozos raise with too much crap.

nate_king1

08-03-2005, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't get rid of jacks in this spot you might want to learn why you should. I've laid down Kings when and Aces flops (NO BIG DEAL, I knew I was beat). You need to make good laydowns to beat SNGs and Poker. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge difference between laying down kings when an ace flops and this scenario. Hero doesn't have enough of a stack to lay down an overpair to this flop.

I'll venture to guess for every "good laydown" you make in spots like this, you're giving up several pots and leaving a lot of money on the table. So when he called pre-flop, what kind of flop should he have been hoping for exactly? Trip jacks?

Sometimes you're just destined to go broke. This hand is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely No difference. At best with your jacks your looking at AK, AQ and Donkey KQ. Which are all coin-flips. Not including the QQ-AA which has you already dominated. Why take a risk at such an early stage in the tournament, is my point. No need, what happens if your right, what happens if your wrong.

Right,-You possible could win a good size pot and double up.

--Doesn't mean your guaranteed ITM, doesn't mean anything, except more chips for bubble.

Wrong,-Your Out.

--You lose the tournament. You differently could of got better cards in bubble time, we never know.

BUT I THINK Limping is find UTG. But calling the raise is bad.

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:19 PM

Will somebody please explain something to me:

How is it that the justification for taking early coinflips with AK (and continuation betting on whiffed flops) is that opponents play all kinds of crap, but the consensus on this forum seems to be that jacks are a marginal hand?

Not raising with jacks in this spot, especially with his stack, is godawful. He ran into a monster, big deal, stuff happens. What about all the times that he raises, gets called by crap, and wins nice pots?

I'm raising in this spot with jacks EVERY time.

freemoney

08-03-2005, 01:20 PM

ive only really played the 109s for any significant number to have an opinion there at that level, but i really dont understand the limp with jj it is so awful, i raise pre and then fold to the reraise, a limp then a raise then a re raise has much more strength then a guy just raising a bunch of limpers, to say things like you must go broke on this hand is not true at all.

pooh74

08-03-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not curtains, but OP's PF decision needs to be looked at here frozen when it was his turn to act. Not raising here has got to be -EV...obviously disaster happened to be looming, but I don't see why that should be taken into account when discussing OP's limp.

If OP raises, how much? Then look at the reraise/allin and put him on a range, look at your odds, and call or fold...I think I would call given OP's remaining stack if I raised PF.

mmbt0ne

08-03-2005, 01:22 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

[/ QUOTE ]

After 1 limper, I'm probably raising this to 100-115 or so. Now, let's say it's folded to MP2, and he re-raises. If he pushes, I'm almost always folding. If he raises to 350 or so, I'm folding too. I can't invest that much preflop, and I don't think JJ is going to hold up very well against his range of hands. The only situation I might not fold would be a min-reraise. I would probably end up calling that, unless he had shown himself to be stupid aggressive earlier in the tournament, and open push any under flop, try to get all his chips in when a J flops. Otherwise, check-fold.

Howard Treesong

08-03-2005, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But he did have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not relevant. If enemy would have played AK/AQ the same way, then hero would be correct to bet/call PF.

[ QUOTE ]
{Bet/fold is} not weak tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is.

[ QUOTE ]
It was his mistake to limp/call. It should have been bet/ call. 

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

Mr_J

08-03-2005, 01:23 PM

"How is it that the justification for taking early coinflips with AK"

This would be terrible. No-one is advising you to do this. You only do this against players who are so LAG that they could be pushing/raising/calling K7 or some crap.

"but the consensus on this forum seems to be that jacks are a marginal hand?"

Obviously not, more people on this thread love raising jacks than limping them.

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

Hero in this hand started the hand with 690 chips! Not raising is really bad here. Think about all the pots he ends up winning by raising here. He needs chips, raising with the 4th best hand in poker sounds like a good way to get them.

durron597

08-03-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Not raising with jacks in this spot, especially with his stack, is godawful. He ran into a monster, big deal, stuff happens. What about all the times that he raises, gets called by crap, and wins nice pots?

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, say you raise with JJ in EP and get 1 LP caller. The flop comes Kxx. Now what? Bet and fold to a raise? Now you're REALLY shortstacked.

The flop comes with 1 over half the time, and you usually won't win more than the initial raise if the overs don't come. So 65% of the time you win t150 and the other 35% or so you lose t700. You will almost never stack someone unless they have TT/99 and the flop comes 8 high or whatever. Except maybe not even then because you raised preflop in EP.

This is definitely a win a small pot lose your whole stack situation. I would rather fold preflop (instead of the limp) than play a big pot here out of position when I have 23 BB left.

Maulik

08-03-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I disagree, it would definately be -EV if the stacks were deeper, but w/ 800 chips, its not -EV to take a pass here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maulik are you saying if the stacks were DEEPER you'd be willing to play this a little farther (i.e. bet or call on the flop), but given the size of the stacks its either AI or fold on the flop, so you choose fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

With deep stacks I'd be willing to call the raise PF. If I'm in this hand its likely I'm going broke given all the chips already in the middle. The large bet in a multi-way hand indicates strength more so than a continuation bet. With deeper stacks, I could muck unimproved or depending on the texture of the flop.

durron597

08-03-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to agree that this is totally ridiculous. There's a huge difference between JJ UTG/UTG+1 early at a full or near-full table than with 4-5 people at it.

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, say you raise with JJ in EP and get 1 LP caller. The flop comes Kxx. Now what? Bet and fold to a raise? Now you're REALLY shortstacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused now. You have no problem continuation betting a completely whiffed AK against one opponent but suddenly my jacks have no value if an overcard comes???

Isura

08-03-2005, 01:27 PM

I would have raised preflop to begin with, and make things a lot easier. I open for 75-100 preflop and see what happens. JJ is a tough hand to play out of position, and raising preflop gives us pretty cheap information about what hands we are up agaist postflop. You played preflop like you were playing for set value, so then you should fold the flop when you miss.

mmbt0ne

08-03-2005, 01:28 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, I hate this. Reverse implied odds KILL you here. I'm not willing to invest half my stack out of position preflop with JJ. If you're going to play after the reraise, I think you have to push.

Maulik

08-03-2005, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised preflop to begin with, and make things a lot easier. I open for 75-100 preflop and see what happens. JJ is a tough hand to play out of position, and raising preflop gives us pretty cheap information about what hands we are up agaist postflop. You played preflop like you were playing for set value, so then you should fold the flop when you miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good information.

Mr_J

08-03-2005, 01:31 PM

FWIW I think "going broke" in this hand and blindly pushing preflop with JJ early on (some guys mentioned it) are both worse than limping preflop.

durron597

08-03-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm confused now. You have no problem continuation betting a completely whiffed AK against one opponent but suddenly my jacks have no value if an overcard comes???

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I don't continuation bet 100% of the time.
2) If AK hits we know we are almost always ahead. If it misses we know we are almost always behind. With JJ, no matter what the flop is we don't know unless it has a J on it or it comes like AKQ.

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:32 PM

FWIW I think opening allin here is stronger than simply folding preflop.

ldavidjm

08-03-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This is definitely a win a small pot lose your whole stack situation. I would rather fold preflop (instead of the limp) than play a big pot here out of position when I have 23 BB left.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not advocating open folding jacks here? I'm sure I'm misreading. I'm open raising jacks pretty much everytime, especially when I have a short stack. Jacks are a darn good hand, half the time you get a nice flop, sometimes you get 1 overcard where a continuation will take it down a solid % of the time. I think this weak playing of jacks is passing up tons of value.

freemoney

08-03-2005, 01:36 PM

curtains do u really ever go broke here at the 215s?

Uppercut

08-03-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising in this spot with jacks EVERY time.

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
curtains do u really ever go broke here at the 215s?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has 680 chips, and this is a $33. You can't talk about this hand as though it was a $215.

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) I don't continuation bet 100% of the time.

2) If AK hits we know we are almost always ahead. If it misses we know we are almost always behind. With JJ, no matter what the flop is we don't know unless it has a J on it or it comes like AKQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's kind of misleading. Sure you pretty well know you're ahead when an A or K comes. But when an A or K doesn't come, you're just guessing.

Ever thought of this: You keep talking about the times that an over comes to my jacks. But AK whiffs more often than an over to my jacks flops. And just because a Q or K comes doesn't mean I'm beaten. (Aces are of course more scary.) So the uncertainty that you speak of happens more often with AK than it does with Jacks since most of the time with jacks when there are no overs I'm still ahead. I'm not scared betting into a queen high flop with a pair of jacks. Like anything else, if I meet resistance, I'll re-evalute.

But given the hero's stack pre-flop, it is important that he takes down a pot. Even if it's "small" (a raise to 90 followed by a call, a flop bet and a fold by his lone opponent) this pot is important. Limping would not be nearly as bad if he had a large stack already.

freemoney

08-03-2005, 01:40 PM

im not, i guess im asking a semi-related question.

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:40 PM

Yeah but okay its hard to answer because the situation would be so different.

durron597

08-03-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So the uncertainty that you speak of happens more often with AK than it does with Jacks

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my point is that when you whiff you can be reasonably confident that you are beaten.

[ QUOTE ]
But given the hero's stack pre-flop, it is important that he takes down a pot. Even if it's "small" (a raise to 90 followed by a call, a flop bet and a fold by his lone opponent) this pot is important. Limping would not be nearly as bad if he had a large stack already.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit I am used to deeper stacks than on Party. Yea, I'm raising this in level 4 on Stars.

cleinen

08-03-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I think opening allin here is stronger than simply folding preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would push with 23BB from UTG+1??? You are only going to net 45 in chips if everyone folds.

curtains

08-03-2005, 01:44 PM

relax Im just comparing that to folding preflop. I would do neither of those 2 things.

Mr_J

08-03-2005, 01:45 PM

He says it's better than folding. Anyway there's bound to be some fool every now and then that feels like gambling with 88.

freemoney

08-03-2005, 01:45 PM

thats why i play the 109s rather than the 215s, good aggressive players in step 5s will do things like reraise with hands like AQ and put pressure on, the 109s play a perfect mix of loose and passive where its only donks re raising with hands worse than JJ other than AK because you get called so much.

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:46 PM

I always like a good debate, Durron. It seems like we never agree but yet we're both winning players.

Nothing like a discussion about playing Jacks from EP to get 50 responses in one hour! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

freemoney

08-03-2005, 01:47 PM

its def not the best line but at a 30 i would assume its def +EV to push right away with JJ.

nate_king1

08-03-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

Hero in this hand started the hand with 690 chips! Not raising is really bad here. Think about all the pots he ends up winning by raising here. He needs chips, raising with the 4th best hand in poker sounds like a good way to get them.

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ is actually 5th best starting hand.
AA, KK, QQ, AK, JJ...

But tell me what happened if he raises like you want him too, and their is a A or K that flops. Now what?

45suited

08-03-2005, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
JJ is actually 5th best starting hand.
AA, KK, QQ, AK, JJ...

[/ QUOTE ]

AK is better than JJ? That's news to me. I'll guarantee you that I've made more money with JJ, but whatever.

[ QUOTE ]
But tell me what happened if he raises like you want him too, and their is a A or K that flops. Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you get flops you don't like. That's poker. By that logic, I'd fold kings pre-flop just in case an ace is coming.

Howard Treesong

08-03-2005, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, I hate this. Reverse implied odds KILL you here. I'm not willing to invest half my stack out of position preflop with JJ. If you're going to play after the reraise, I think you have to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand, but the enemy is committed. I don't see the PF push-three-bet as giving you any FE at all. I shut down if an A hits the flop and push most of the time otherwise.

JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

durron597

08-03-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]

JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he only raises with overpairs and AK?

The Yugoslavian

08-03-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Well also we are pretty shortstacked!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf are you talking about?!?! You have almost 700 chips in an 800 chip game.

[ QUOTE ]

I just don't understand how playing this way with JJ is so common, it just seems so terrible to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean limp/calling/stuffing flop?

[ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it at least has some merit, but in this situation I think it's just mindless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being careful with JJ early is good in a 33 b/c proper late game play is particularly poor and the hero already has reads that would lead one to believe he is behind or only slightly ahead of mp2.

FWIW I'm liable to limp/fold preflop here and I don't think it's particularly horrible (in fact, I think it's *good*). Raising is an option too but in the 800 chip game you're getting raised behind and almost pot committed vs. what's likely to be at best overs. I'm more likely to do this in a 1000 chip game.

By limping and seeing a flop that was unraised preflop you will have a much better idea of where you may stand and how to play the flop. If it is raised preflop by a player who is more or less solid, you can muck and know that playing an overcard flop or an undercard flop would be tricky as you're liable to go broke quite often or just win a relatively small amount of chips.

I think limp/calling a substantial raise is the worst way to play this hand when OOP (unless it was someone like MP1 who raised preflop).

Yugoslav
Who thinks folding is sublime...

adanthar

08-03-2005, 02:06 PM

You guys know I've basically given up on trying to persuade anyone to raise PF (because no one does), but I'll just say raising to 100 and having a solid player behind you make it 300 is the only way to avoid going broke here.

durron597

08-03-2005, 02:06 PM

Oh my god I agreed with Yugo on a hand. What has the world come to....

Howard Treesong

08-03-2005, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he only raises with overpairs and AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still pos-EV. Pokerstove says overpairs and AK are a 63/35 favorite to the JJ, which is still under two to one. That assumes you can see the river for free, of course -- which usually isn't the case.

08-03-2005, 02:15 PM

It seems obvious to me that a 3x raise is justified here for pre-flop informational purposes. So, you raise to 90. K-K probably raised to 270 or goes all-in. Given your read on him as not crazy, I probably believe him and throw away at this point and look for a better spot, figuring I'm either down to AA, KK, QQ and a 4.5:1 dog, or coin-flipping it with AK. Neither sounds fun to me, and you still have plenty of chips to make something happen.

You definitely do NOT have to go broke on this hand. The mistake was not pushing out the riff-raff and gathering information pre-flop.

rydazzle

08-03-2005, 02:20 PM

45,

I agree with your posts, UTG+1 is auto-raise with JJ especially with the med stack. KK will re-raise and I can make the call if I feel villian will re-raise with AK or fold if I feel he has what he's supposed to, QQ-AA.

Limping JJ is playing it like 77 or 66 for set value, your stack is too small to play them like small PPs.

Salva135

08-03-2005, 02:32 PM

Let's face it, most of the time a player will go broke with this hand because most of the time a player doesn't run into this situation, i.e., a higher overpair. Yes, you could have raised and then folded to a re-raise, putting him on QQ, KK, or AA, but unless you are extremely tight, I think you still would have to take a flop here. Either way, once you committed yourself to calling the raise and seeing the flop, you HAD to get all of your money in post-flop. With your stack that low, there is absolutely NO way you can fold on the flop, to do so would be a total tragedy.

I don't mind calling with jacks in early position and then calling any raise behind, with the intention of mucking if there are overcards on the flop and lots of action, and making a move if you're an overpair. The deception value is high and the risks are much lower than trying to play jacks strongly out of position.

But the point is, you pretty much have to see a flop here, and you pretty much have to push post-flop. You just got unlucky.

Steve

08-03-2005, 02:42 PM

I don't have enough SNGs behind me but anybody have an extensive PT database that they could query for this kind of situation (call PFR w/ JJ & you flop an overpair, or some similar query) and see whether you won or lost chips in the long run?

Howard Treesong

08-03-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have enough SNGs behind me but anybody have an extensive PT database that they could query for this kind of situation (call PFR w/ JJ & you flop an overpair, or some similar query) and see whether you won or lost chips in the long run?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how, yet, to make PT do that. I've been meaning to buy the $20 PT guide that will teach me how to do things like this, but haven't yet. I think I must.

I don't have a deep database yet, either -- about 5K hands.

rydazzle

08-03-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it, most of the time a player will go broke with this hand because most of the time a player doesn't run into this situation, i.e., a higher overpair. Yes, you could have raised and then folded to a re-raise, putting him on QQ, KK, or AA, but unless you are extremely tight, I think you still would have to take a flop here. Either way, once you committed yourself to calling the raise and seeing the flop, you HAD to get all of your money in post-flop. With your stack that low, there is absolutely NO way you can fold on the flop, to do so would be a total tragedy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree with the former of my line, raise, see re-rasie behind, call? You feel this guy is AK/AQ? Then call. You have basically said that this guy doesn't mind the gap (if Hero raised UTG+1) - which on no reads early is assuming donk...safe?

[ QUOTE ]

But the point is, you pretty much have to see a flop here, and you pretty much have to push post-flop. You just got unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have to push after seeing this flop? smells weak to me: you should have just pushed pre-flop...if you were ahead then, you are ahead now.

There are too many factors involved here that are unknown since he limped with JJ. The re-raise amount would be crucial to know if he had raised UTG+1.

pooh74

08-03-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You guys know I've basically given up on trying to persuade anyone to raise PF (because no one does), but I'll just say raising to 100 and having a solid player behind you make it 300 is the only way to avoid going broke here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not the only way (according to some) but, IMO, it is the only +EV way to avoid it...because if you do go broke after raising and being reraised, you played the hand correctly and the bust should be more than offset by the value you gain from the other times you correctly raised and won a small-big pot.

11t

08-03-2005, 04:27 PM

FWIW I said Hero's mistake was calling the raise preflop, but I think it is marginal. It is a mult-way pot with a donk involved, reasons enough to call preflop with JJ.

Yes, with deeper stacks you could re-raise him on the flop and still get away form your hand. However, with t800 without a good read I think folding this flop is going cost you in the long run.