"Top"/"bottom" meaning? (and a hand) [Archive]

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08-03-2005, 10:37 AM

I have a question regarding the terms "top" and "bottom" - are these measured as an absolute strength of the cards, i.e. A,K,Q,J will be always high, or relative to the flop, that is for the flop of A, K and Q, the ace would be "top" and the queen would be "bottom"?

On an unrelated note, if somebody has a time to look at a total newbie's hand - in the following situation, where I had a pair, did I make any big mistakes?

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises, MP1 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, Hero folds, BB calls.

River: (15 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

BB has 3c Jd (full house, jacks full of threes).
UTG has 3d 3s (full house, threes full of jacks).
Outcome: BB wins 21 BB.

TaoTe

08-03-2005, 10:56 AM

In answer to your first question, I really don't know what you mean. Sometimes people will say top and bottom to mean two pair. But sometimes people say the strangest things. That's the thing with people, you never can tell.

In answer to your second question about the hand. I'd love to share my thoughts. PF=good. I love getting money in the pot with a good hand. QQ=good hand. Yum. Flop=WTF LOL. Why are you calling two bets cold on that board? You're getting pretty odds but a bare king has you murdered. Turn=Gooooood. Folding is fun. Folding is for everyone.

If there was only a single bet and no call when it go to you, I'd call thinking they had me beat with a king. If a heart fell on the turn I'd bluff and take a stab at it to represent the flush. And only if the stakes were higher and I thought someone could lay down a hand. But what do I know, I'm a weak/passive donkey.

AASooted

08-03-2005, 11:24 AM

If you have Q 4 and the flop is Q T 6, you have flopped top pair (with a bad kicker). If you have Q 4 and the flop is 9 7 4, you have flopped bottom pair. If you have Q Q and the flop is 9 7 4, you have an over pair. If you have Q Q and the flop is A K 3, you have an under pair.

Regarding the hand, the raise was great (you have a huge hand, so you want to get build a big pot), but I think you've gotta fold to that first flop raise. You definitely don't want to call the cap. BB and UTG are shouting that they have better hands than you do. You're way behind to anyone with a K, and the cap tells me that they both probably have better hands than a pair of kings -- unless they're both complete maniacs.

08-03-2005, 06:57 PM

Thanks, now that I get this top pair/bottom pair terms it all actually makes a little more sense than before /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also I think I got a lesson from this - that a pair (but not a top pair) on the flop isn't really a good hand..

AASooted

08-03-2005, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also I think I got a lesson from this - that a pair (but not a top pair) on the flop isn't really a good hand..

[/ QUOTE ]

Get used to hearing this around these forums, but it depends. There are lots of other factors that might make your hand worth playing if you flop bottom pair or even if you don't pair up at all -- flush draws for example.

It would be a good idea to get some books and read up on all the things that you need to consider when playing after the flop. I haven't read "Getting Started in Hold 'Em", but it gets many recommendations. I have read "Small-Stakes Hold 'Em" (although I have a lot more to absorb from it), and it's a very good book.

Hard and fast rules seem to be very dangerous things in Texas Hold 'Em.

AKQJ10

08-04-2005, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also I think I got a lesson from this - that a pair (but not a top pair) on the flop isn't really a good hand..

[/ QUOTE ]

Get used to hearing this around these forums, but it depends. There are lots of other factors that might make your hand worth playing if you flop bottom pair or even if you don't pair up at all -- flush draws for example.

It would be a good idea to get some books and read up on all the things that you need to consider when playing after the flop. I haven't read "Getting Started in Hold 'Em", but it gets many recommendations. I have read "Small-Stakes Hold 'Em" (although I have a lot more to absorb from it), and it's a very good book.

Hard and fast rules seem to be very dangerous things in Texas Hold 'Em.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.... but until you gain a bit of experience and perspective, treat middle pair as a not-very-good drawing hand, and non-overpair pocket pairs as just a plain not-very-good hand. You should definitely even now start taking pot size into consideration and stay with middle pair if the pot's huge, but for now just start thinking of it as a mediocre hand on the flop, even if you had KQ and the flop comes A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. (At low limit's there's very likely someone out there with an ace, in which case you're behind though you have some chance of improvement.)

As you mature in poker knowledge, you'll realize that the advice i just gave you is bad. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Not terrible, but bad enough to make you weak-tight (http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Player_types). Being weak-tight is better than being terrible-loose, but there are better ways to look at the situation. With middle pair (or QQ with a K on board), you want to ask yourself how likely it is that your pair is good. Have others shown aggression on the flop? Are there many other people in the hand? Are they likely to have played cards that the flop hit? (E.g., everyone loves to play aces, but if you have pocket nines and the flop comes ten high that ten is less likely to have paired someone.) Even if you're behind, with middle pair you may have five or more "outs" to improve, so you'll learn how to evaluate that draw to inform your decision whether to stay in or not. And again, ALWAYS consider the size of the pot. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.

But all that will come in time. For now just don't hang in with middle pair or an underpair unless the pot's quite big, and you'll be doing 100 times better than most beginners.

Welcome to the forum, again, and keep asking great questions. Check out our FAQ at http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Beginner -- item 1.1 is some ideas about how to improve.

Good luck!