A question regarding to the purpose of this forum.

Lets say -you- are a good player. Why should you write on this forum? Why should you tell all your great strategies/reads and how-to-win-more-money-on-poker stories, and help not so good poker-players here?

I really cant understand it. Does good poker players want the opponents to be better, so it wont be so easy as it was, to earn money from poker?

I realise that it is -alooot- of players on the different poker-sites, but still, more and more players is getting more and more skilled in pokre since they are sitting and reading forums like this.

If this forum havent been around, "good" poker players have earned more money. If i had been a -insane- great pro poker player, ofcourse i havent told people what is my winning method, so that my opponents will be better. This forum makes the regular poker player -> Pro gamer after some weeks of reading the forum. /images/graemlins/smile.gif So i guess a good players dream is that forums like this suddenly dissapeard and never have been around.

So - the only thing that happens when poker-forums exist, is that it will be harder to earn money on poker, since it is begginning to be more and more standarized to use the pro-gamer-methods in poker, due to people sitting and reading hint and tips from forums like this. Right?

[BZ_Zorro]

"Poker Advice. Everybodies got some; the people who wanna share don't know what they are talking about, the people you wanna share probably wouldn't tell you the truth anyway."

The above is not true.

[dibbs]

I've had three seperate english professors who have urged me to become a paid tutor for my school. I was the top student in each class, so it was implied that they thought I was a good writer, but each one of them also gave me another reason for doing it, helping others may aid me in seeing the flaws in my own process.

You sharpen your blade by engaging with others in an analytical process, even if you are the far more experienced artist in the case.

I'm happy to be an info sponge here.

[fimbulwinter]

this is akin to asking the question:

"How can we have nuclear physics books available to the general public when we know terrorists are trying to build nuclear weapons?"

there are very few people who actually understand half of what is being said here and why. those people smart enough to really get all these forums have to offer, especially the posts of the really good posters, are very few and far between and moreover have no problem staying away from one another.

Consider this: after the famous book on blackjack counting came out, casinos massively increased their take from these games. id be willing to bet that many bad players who are unable to exercise the self-restraint required to better themselves have returned to the game as a result of this site.

fim

[Benholio]

The idea is that the top couple % of poker players can benefit from sharing information with each other, further separating themselves from the rest of the population.

Imagine all poker players are broken up into groups of 50, and nobody plays anyone outside of their group. Wouldn't it be in the best interests of the best player from each group to share ideas with the other top players?

Maybe the posters here aren't all #1's, but the concept applies.

[Biggenx]

It continues to amaze me to see the same player/players at several tables at the same time when i'm multitabling and still have a Vol.put$inPot% of 40 to even 70 or 80. Now i do play really low limits now but i saw very similar players multitabling at the $100NL & $200NL tables i used to play.

What fim said is right on, only the very dedicated few (or have an uncanny natural gift) are going to get better by reading posts on this forum. Take me for example, i printed out fim's post on +EV (Part I i think it was), and i'm still studying it (i struggle with poker math beyond simple pot odds/# of outs, etc.)

i just don't think there are many casual poker players willing to improve their game the way they'd need to to compete.

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had three seperate english professors who have urged me to become a paid tutor for my school. I was the top student in each class, so it was implied that they thought I was a good writer, but each one of them also gave me another reason for doing it, helping others may aid me in seeing the flaws in my own process.

You sharpen your blade by engaging with others in an analytical process, even if you are the far more experienced artist in the case.

I'm happy to be an info sponge here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you should tutor the orignal poster.

[theblitz]

There's an old Jewish saying (from the Talmud):

"I have learnt much from my teachers, more from my peers and the most from my students"

There is no question that explaining things to others improves your own play.

[yvesaint]

So I guess teachers shouldn't teach because their students might grow up and become more succesful than they are? This is sort of like a teacher refusing to help a kid learn math because 'oh no, hes gonna cut into my food supply later on'.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no question that explaining things to others improves your own play.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is certainly a good reason.

Another is that many posters here would simply not be good players if it wasn't for these forums. Helping out others is a way to give something back.

[ QUOTE ]
This forum makes the regular poker player -> Pro gamer after some weeks of reading the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not even close to true. To make a consistent profit at this game, you need to study it, long and hard. I doubt anyone could be come a winning player in a few weeks. For most of us, it takes months to be able to beat the smallest games consistently.

[ QUOTE ]
Why should you tell all your great strategies/reads and how-to-win-more-money-on-poker stories, and help not so good poker-players here?

[/ QUOTE ]

After Super/System and Theory of Poker, all the great strategy was out there anyway. All we do here is try to apply it to concrete situations. The fact that you can discuss these topics with fellow players is the strength of this forum, not it's weakness.

[ QUOTE ]
this is akin to asking the question:

"How can we have nuclear physics books available to the general public when we know terrorists are trying to build nuclear weapons?"

there are very few people who actually understand half of what is being said here and why. those people smart enough to really get all these forums have to offer, especially the posts of the really good posters, are very few and far between and moreover have no problem staying away from one another.

Consider this: after the famous book on blackjack counting came out, casinos massively increased their take from these games. id be willing to bet that many bad players who are unable to exercise the self-restraint required to better themselves have returned to the game as a result of this site.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

That might be right, but question is asked by all levels of players. So a bad player becomes an average player by asking questions and reading forum-posts in here, and after a while he become a good player. So its not only "high end players" who benefits from this forum. Its more like a pyramide. If you read alot of "basic-question-posts", you will finaly understand some posts from good players, and so on.

I realise that only a few % of the players becomes very good players anyway and "makes it to the top" but thats not even the point. The Point is that this forum makes "average joe" a better player and it is harder to make money on poker.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no question that explaining things to others improves your own play.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is certainly a good reason.

Another is that many posters here would simply not be good players if it wasn't for these forums. Helping out others is a way to give something back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, thats exactly what i mean. why are all trying to help eachother to be better players? arent we hoping that all are permanently atm`s/callingstations/fishes?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This forum makes the regular poker player -> Pro gamer after some weeks of reading the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not even close to true. To make a consistent profit at this game, you need to study it, long and hard. I doubt anyone could be come a winning player in a few weeks. For most of us, it takes months to be able to beat the smallest games consistently.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should you tell all your great strategies/reads and how-to-win-more-money-on-poker stories, and help not so good poker-players here?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
After Super/System and Theory of Poker, all the great strategy was out there anyway. All we do here is try to apply it to concrete situations. The fact that you can discuss these topics with fellow players is the strength of this forum, not it's weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

You understand what i mean, if a average player reads here for x amount of time and trying it aswell he will eventually become a better player based on this forum.

And about the super system / theory of poker, those are books who costs money. This forum is free.

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]

And about the super system / theory of poker, those are books who costs money. This forum is free.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? why is that relevant to what you're saying? so, if 2+2 costs money then it won't help people become better poker players?

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is akin to asking the question:

"How can we have nuclear physics books available to the general public when we know terrorists are trying to build nuclear weapons?"

there are very few people who actually understand half of what is being said here and why. those people smart enough to really get all these forums have to offer, especially the posts of the really good posters, are very few and far between and moreover have no problem staying away from one another.

Consider this: after the famous book on blackjack counting came out, casinos massively increased their take from these games. id be willing to bet that many bad players who are unable to exercise the self-restraint required to better themselves have returned to the game as a result of this site.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

That might be right, but question is asked by all levels of players. So a bad player becomes an average player by asking questions and reading forum-posts in here, and after a while he become a good player. So its not only "high end players" who benefits from this forum. Its more like a pyramide. If you read alot of "basic-question-posts", you will finaly understand some posts from good players, and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's simple really. Poker is like all other things in life. If you work hard, you will become good at whatever you are trying to learn. Poker is no different.

This forum provides an learning environment, that's it. Without determination and stamina, it is useless. You will need to be dedicated and stay focused, or you will never become better than break-even. And that is why we don't fear educating the masses. They're too lazy to be a threat. All that might happen is that after three weeks of lurking/posting, they think they're experts, start making losing "plays" to "mix things up" at 25$NL and they'll donate their money to the community.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And about the super system / theory of poker, those are books who costs money. This forum is free.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? why is that relevant to what you're saying? so, if 2+2 costs money then it won't help people become better poker players?

[/ QUOTE ]

_Yes_. Because not so many wouldnt have bothered buying a book vs reading a free forum who can answer your question asap.

But ofcourse, those who bother buying a poker-book will ofcourse become a better player after reading the book.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And about the super system / theory of poker, those are books who costs money. This forum is free.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? why is that relevant to what you're saying? so, if 2+2 costs money then it won't help people become better poker players?

[/ QUOTE ]

_Yes_. Because not so many wouldnt have bothered buying a book vs reading a free forum who can answer your question asap.

But ofcourse, those who bother buying a poker-book will ofcourse become a better player after reading the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee you that amazon.com alone will have sold more poker books than there are registered posters on this forum.

[ QUOTE ]

It's simple really. Poker is like all other things in life. If you work hard, you will become good at whatever you are trying to learn. Poker is no different.

This forum provides an learning environment, that's it. Without determination and stamina, it is useless. You will need to be dedicated and stay focused, or you will never become better than break-even. And that is why we don't fear educating the masses. They're too lazy to be a threat. All that might happen is that after three weeks of lurking/posting, they think they're experts, start making losing "plays" to "mix things up" at 25$NL and they'll donate their money to the community.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ofcourse i agree, Most people are like you say, lazy and wont be reading/learning so much. But still they learn enough to be slightly better. And much more important, Some % of the population who reads forum have alot of stamina and determination, and will be very good players after alot of intense asking and reading in this forum. I guess its like a pyramide. but it is keep getting more and more in the top of the pyramide due to poker-foums. cant bee good.

[ChipWrecked]

Look at it this way. You live in the U.S., I assume?
How many diet books, pills and other products are there on the market?
And how many fatasses do you see every day?
Losing weight is a helluva lot simpler than playing good poker.

[bkholdem]

Lets say -you- are a good player. Why should you write on this forum? Why should you tell all your great strategies/reads and how-to-win-more-money-on-poker stories, and help not so good poker-players here?

** There are lots of motivations
- Self esteem
- Recognition
- Comradery
- Seeking approval
- Seeking praise
- Engaging in debate
- Altruism
- Learning through teaching
- Mutual learning (I teach you, you teach me...we both win)

I really cant understand it. Does good poker players want the opponents to be better, so it wont be so easy as it was, to earn money from poker?

***Two men are in the woods. They suddenly see a bear charging at them. They both instinctively start to run in the opposite direction. One man says to the other while running away "I hope we can outrun this bear!" The other man says back "I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun YOU!" (It doesn't matter if they are 'better' it only matters if they are better than you.)

[ QUOTE ]

***Two men are in the woods. They suddenly see a bear charging at them. They both instinctively start to run in the opposite direction. One man says to the other while running away "I hope we can outrun this bear!" The other man says back "I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun YOU!" (It doesn't matter if they are 'better' it only matters if they are better than you.)

[/ QUOTE ]

In this bear-scenario of yours, i guess its better if the other man in the wood only can walk, then you teach him to run. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But yes, i get the picture. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Verdi]

There are several hundred thousand online poker players these days. How many are registered here? How often do we play other 2+2 players? I don't know, I haven't seen much evidence of that so far.

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
Losing weight is a helluva lot simpler than playing good poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
But losing money at poker is a helluva lot simpler than losing weight. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
But ofcourse, those who bother buying a poker-book will ofcourse become a better player after reading the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make it sound so simple to become a good poker player. Take it from someone who for 3 years has been studying his ass off, reading practically every poker book every publiushed, and playing a million hands: it isn't easy. It's very hard.

This forum, and the free sharing of poker knowledge in general, is no threat to the profitability of the games.

Now, I'll turn the question around on you: You said...

[ QUOTE ]
Why should you write on this forum? Why should you tell all your great strategies/reads and how-to-win-more-money-on-poker stories, and help not so good poker-players here?

[/ QUOTE ]

So I ask you: Why shouldn't they?

[The_Bends]

If everyone who played poker online read these forums then it would be worth spreading misinformaion in order keep those at the top, at the top. However since only 0.01% of the online population of poker players seriously read this forum the EV benifits of improving your own game through conversation/discussion far outweight the small EV loss you get from posting something which a player reads, improves his game with and then uses it to beat you in a future game.

[btetreau]

[ QUOTE ]
The Point is that this forum makes "average joe" a better player and it is harder to make money on poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another thing to consider is that these forums can also make average joe think that he is a better player, and so he reads here for a week and then sits down in a NL200 game and tries pushing everyone around like he saw once on here or read in a book.

I think that most really good poker players will agree that the top 3 abilities that you need to be great are:

1.) a sharp mind, capable of multi-level thought and a keen memory
2.) loads of experience
3.) a solid understanding of the math and theories (EV, etc) behind the game

this forum can only help you with #3, it can not give anyone experience or a better brain. i think that the benefit i get in my game from this forum is greater than the advantage that probably less than 1% of all my potential opponents get.

[poboy]

I've wondered about this myself. With pokers rise in popularity there have been many books written and forums popping up, and with all the information readily available what is to stop the new players from reading the same material I am. It's very simple, laziness. Most people do not want to read poker books, they just want to have a good time like they see on TV. Now out of the small percantage of people who do actually want to learn and are willing to study, how many of them will really understand it? Not too many. So out of the thousands and thousands of new players only a select few will have the desire to learn and even fewer will have the capacity to learn. JMO

[xcrack999]

There's 35930 people registered on 2+2. The real number is even less because of some people registering like 9 times. *cough* theredpill *cough* I bet that's like one percent of the total poker playing population. Are you willing to share your "secret" winning ways with that one percent of the population so you can get an edge on that other ninety percent? I sure the hell am!