tough cowboys 3/6 NL

[technologic]

3/6 party full ring

hero (1100) opens to 24 on the button with KK. villain (600) in bb raises to 72. hero calls.

flop JTx rainbow
villain bets 125, hero calls.

turn Q
villain moves in for 400, hero folds.

[thabadguy]

The question is??

[technologic]

is the play any different on any street?

[thabadguy]

no.

[technologic]

k just checking thx

[fimbulwinter]

that's how i play it.

if it's any consolation, i think you were ahead at every stage where your money went into the pot.

fim

[coltrane]

if this is true:

[ QUOTE ]

i think you were ahead at every stage where your money went into the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]


I don't understand how you can say this:

[ QUOTE ]
that's how i play it.

[/ QUOTE ]


if statement A is true, then the hand was clearly misplayed....no reads on villain are given, but I don't really get it.....what's his range here?....AA and only AA?.....did you think you were ahead on the flop?......why call then?....

I don't know this game or this villain, but FWIW it's rare that I lay down KK for 100BB's without a great read.....villain reraises preflop, you are in the perfect spot to trap with KK (position-wise, and depth-wise).....he leads into you on the flop, a call makes the pot the size of his remaining stack - I'm all-in almost everytime right there.....if he shows me aces, he's getting my money.....the jack and ten are a little scary on the flop also, but I made that decision by flat-calling preflop and in the long run it makes more money than reraising him preflop and letting him get away from those hands......if you had a strong read that your kings were no good on the flop, fine, fold.....but if you made your commitment decision, do you realize how costly it was to let him see a turn card if he has QQ, AK, 99, or god knows what else?.....

[gomberg]

One thing I've noticed a lot here is that people don't raise the flop enough. In NL, the flop is usually a big confontation spot and that's where a lot of big decisions happen. People should regularly be raising the flop on coordinated boards in raised pots - with a draw or with a good hand. This is an example of a coordinated board - just push in on the flop. You may be beat, but most likely you're ahead - even if he calls you.

The only reason for a call here is if this is the type of opponent who's turn action will define his hand. You don't state this, so get the money in there when you are very likely to be ahead.

also, if you're going to end up folding this hand postflop or putting in money on the flop to fold on the turn, just 4-bet preflop and hope he calls with an underpair or high ace.

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
3/6 party full ring

hero (1100) opens to 24 on the button with KK. villain (600) in bb raises to 72. hero calls.

flop JTx rainbow
villain bets 125, hero calls.

turn Q
villain moves in for 400, hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

My initial analysis of this was that he could raise it PF and then bet when checked to on the flop. Would I be giving too much away with that line?

Marlow

[BluffTHIS!]

Excellent answer gomberg. OP's hand if not already beat is in serious danger with a flop of 2 broadway cards. KK needs to raise here 100% of the time as a blind would often play back preflop with a wide range of hands to a presumed button steal. Raising the flop is the action that can draw the most reliable information about villain's hand, while also often eliciting a checked turn if he merely calls. KK to this flop is not a monster and should not be slow-played. If you are met with a reraise and have no reason to believe you are being played, you can always fold there. Plus if villain doesn't have a big hand, raising will often cause a fold and prevent him from seeing a turn card like the one that arrived that could be very damaging to KK. Only calling the flop just allows an aggressive player with an underpair, TPTK or unimproved A to control the hand and negates OP's power of position.

[technologic]

my plan was to push any non queen non ace turn.

if he has AA, reraising pf is suicide and screams the strength of my hand.

if he has AK/QQ, then he's drawing slim and i have position.

if he's got JJ, then i'll let him three bet all he wants with JJ oop.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
if he has AA, reraising pf is suicide and screams the strength of my hand.

if he has AK/QQ, then he's drawing slim and i have position.

if he's got JJ, then i'll let him three bet all he wants with JJ oop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are those his only 3-betting hands to a steal? I'd be reraising a steal there some % of the time w/ anything I wanted to play (any pocket pair, suited connectors, decent aces). Obviously, if that's his only range for 3-betting, then your play is ok.

[n1bd]

[ QUOTE ]
KK to this flop is not a monster and should not be slow-played. If you are met with a reraise and have no reason to believe you are being played, you can always fold there.

[/ QUOTE ]
With these stacks, it's hard to fold after raising the flop.

[n1bd]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason for a call here is if this is the type of opponent who's turn action will define his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
What's if he's the type of opponent who will give you a lot more chips on the turn if and only if he isn't raised on the flop? Seems like you have to consider things like how often you are behind, how many outs you are up against if you're ahead (and if you know exactly what those outs are), and how much villain will put in on the turn with the worse hand.

This is already a big pot, and there is only room for one more bet after villain's flop lead. Defining villain's hand isn't so important, unless his turn action will let hero definitively save that last bet, but this probably isn't the case with one bet to go when hero's hand is very concealed (as it is here).

Raising the flop for protection (and avoiding bad folds on future streets) is important if villain has a drawing hand *that won't give more action unimproved* and/or if hero doesn't know what the exact outs are (reverse implied odds). Here, technologic seems to have his opponent on a tight hand range (though I agree with you, gomberg, that it probably shouldn't be so tight in a possible steal-resteal situation), so hero has no reverse implied odds. Hero can happily milk AK or induce turn pushes to his heart's content, so long as his profit from this action exceeds what he loses from being sucked out on.

Basically, I don't see why it's good to have a thought process like, "the board is coordinated, I might be best, let's push." Instead, first consider what you know about villain's hand range and choose the most profitable line. If you don't have villain on a tight hand range and/or don't know how he will act/react on future streets, then, sure, revert to the simpler "let's push" version. Technologic's plan of waiting for a non-A non-Q turn seems fine to me given his read.

[gomberg]

good post - i didn't mean to say that it's just a push... I just thought in this situation it was better than calling as you have no idea what cards hurt / help you and you may get a call from AJ, QQ, anyway on the flop. Also, we have to know his turn bluff frequency as well.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I've noticed a lot here is that people don't raise the flop enough. In NL, the flop is usually a big confontation spot and that's where a lot of big decisions happen. People should regularly be raising the flop on coordinated boards in raised pots - with a draw or with a good hand. This is an example of a coordinated board - just push in on the flop. You may be beat, but most likely you're ahead - even if he calls you.

The only reason for a call here is if this is the type of opponent who's turn action will define his hand. You don't state this, so get the money in there when you are very likely to be ahead.

also, if you're going to end up folding this hand postflop or putting in money on the flop to fold on the turn, just 4-bet preflop and hope he calls with an underpair or high ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I smooth-call a preflop reraise with AA or KK, my usual plan is to get it allin on flop or turn.

In this case, because of bet sizes, it's the flop; just push it.