Min raising instead of pushing to preserve stack

[J-Lo]

I had a discussion with another 2+2er and it made some sense, but i still haven't "seen the light" perse.

HH is from memory, but me SB and button stacks are correct in a $55 tourney

Blinds go up in 2 hands
6 handed @ lvl 4 (50/100 blinds)

Hero is button and dealt A4o

UTG 2000
UTG+1 1500
CO-1 2700
CO 1000
Button/Hero 1300
SB 700
BB 500

Standard push for most. But here's an idea... raise to 250 and fold if the 700 chip stack pushes... I feel awkward just writing this. But here it goes

the reasonign is that preserving your stack/FE is so valuable that you can pass up on 2:1 edges. Would it be better to use this strat if UTG, UTG+1, and CO-1 had large discrepencies in stack size? (ex UTG+1 had 5500 chips)

If this is a rediculous idea, tell me-- because i still see it as being strange and not as profitable as out right pushing.

[The Don]

That is the best play IMO. I will always make the 2.5xBB raise in this spot and fold to an SB allin.

[johnnybeef]

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That is the best play IMO. I will always make the 2.5xBB raise in this spot and fold to an SB allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

well actually, it is highly player dependent for me, but nevertheless it is something that i use frequently.

[lastchance]

Really? Because I'd like to pick up chips, and folding with 2:1 odds is never a happy thing for me.

[Isura]

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Really? Because I'd like to pick up chips, and folding with 2:1 odds is never a happy thing for me.

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Actually, 2.3:1 odds. No way I would fold to a SB push here. It's 6 handed, and you still need to accumulate chips. I'd still rather push, and folding is better than raising if you plan on folding to a sb push imo.

[The Don]

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Really? Because I'd like to pick up chips, and folding with 2:1 odds is never a happy thing for me.

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Actually, 2.3:1 odds. No way I would fold to a SB push here. It's 6 handed, and you still need to accumulate chips. I'd still rather push, and folding is better than raising if you plan on folding to a sb push imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a cash game its a call but given that it is a tournament that pays 3 spots I am folding. I am not willing to give up the extra 450 chips when there is a 95% chance I am a 2.3:1 dog or worse. I really don't think pot odds are very valid when it comes to SNGs. The early game is about implied odds and there are many other factors in the late game (stack sizes, future blind sizes, payout structure) which make pot odds negligible. Being left with > 10BB in L4 is not a bad situation at all.

[45suited]

Flame away fellas...

I would actually fold here. The 150 chips don't mean enough to me at this point to get myself stuck in the situation you describe. The game is going be in push / fold mode soon and that 150 isn't nearly as important as the possiblity of hurting my stack.

Yes, I know that I likely have the best hand of the three remaining but it's not a powerhouse, and it's not worth severely hurting me in the event that one of the blinds wants to gamble.

[schwza]

i like folding better than i like raise-folding.

i push here 100% of the time.

[The Don]

[ QUOTE ]
Flame away fellas...

I would actually fold here. The 150 chips don't mean enough to me at this point to get myself stuck in the situation you describe. The game is going be in push / fold mode soon and that 150 isn't nearly as important as the possiblity of hurting my stack.

Yes, I know that I likely have the best hand of the three remaining but it's not a powerhouse, and it's not worth severely hurting me in the event that one of the blinds wants to gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding is better than moving in IMO.

You need the SB to fold 1 in every 3 hands to make the 2.5xBB raise profitable long term though. I'm pretty sure the typical SB will move in more like 1 in every 5 or 6... this is enough to make me think the raise is a good play. The BB I am not too worried about because you are essentially facing a random 2 and he is liable to push them out of desperation.

[morgan180]

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i like folding better than i like raise-folding.



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[45suited]

I would never push in this spot, I don't care what any program says. It's just not worth it.

Look at where the game is headed. Push / fold territory soon. You're in fine shape for this stage. The 150 chips will not siginificantly change your position, but losing a big pot will. I liken this fold to PVS's old Level 4 strategy - get a stack sufficient to play at the higher level. Don't let the cards force you into making decisions that really don't make sense in the big picture.

It's not like you have a powerhouse. You have A4. Yawn.

[AbelM]

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You need the SB to fold 1 in every 3 hands to make the 2.5xBB raise profitable long term though.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he calls or pushes you're hand isn't dead.

[AbelM]

Pushing or raise 2.5 BB is just a matter of style. Folding or pushing might also be quite close. I think raising 2.5 BB and than folding to the reraise is a mistake though.

[microbet]

That analysis about raising is similar to a pot odds rationale for calling a reraise.

I usually push here. If SB had maybe 100 more chips and was passive I would likely make a small raise.

I don't think it would have any significant effect here if the other stacks were less balanced, but possibly you should be a tiny bit more careful, because although you would have the same amount of chips you would have more to lose and I wouldn't count on SBTo recognize that and make any adjustment to his calling/reraising standards.

[tech]

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I will always make the 2.5xBB raise in this spot and fold to an SB allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't take long before good players start to spot this and come over the top with any two. One of my most frequent notes on people is how often they fold to a resteal.

[GimmeDaWatch]

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i like folding better than i like raise-folding.

i push here 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what the actual math is on this one, but Im guessing its pretty close. I think its safe to say that whether your all-in is called or whether SB moves in on top of your raise you are a 2:1 dog or greater nearly all the time. Of course, once in a while theyll fold a hand that dominates you, but for better or for worse I really hate these scenarios w/weak aces and try to avoid them as best I can. I actually prefer moving in here with hands like KQ or 89s b/c when you get called there is a better chance that your cards are live even if youre a small dog. I think the 250 raise is fine (or a fold for that matter), as its pretty unlikely that the SB is gonna make a play on you here with an inferior hand. Like I said, one way or the other, I think the odds are pretty close, but I just dont like laying a big chunk of my stack out to win a little when anything but a fold means Im dominated. Plug in 100/200 or 150/300 blinds with the exact same scenario, I think its an entirely different story.

[GimmeDaWatch]

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Pushing or raise 2.5 BB is just a matter of style. Folding or pushing might also be quite close. I think raising 2.5 BB and than folding to the reraise is a mistake though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this a mistake? How often do you figure to be less than a 2.3:1 dog even going strictly by pot odds?

[Isura]

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Really? Because I'd like to pick up chips, and folding with 2:1 odds is never a happy thing for me.

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Actually, 2.3:1 odds. No way I would fold to a SB push here. It's 6 handed, and you still need to accumulate chips. I'd still rather push, and folding is better than raising if you plan on folding to a sb push imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a cash game its a call but given that it is a tournament that pays 3 spots I am folding. I am not willing to give up the extra 450 chips when there is a 95% chance I am a 2.3:1 dog or worse. I really don't think pot odds are very valid when it comes to SNGs. The early game is about implied odds and there are many other factors in the late game (stack sizes, future blind sizes, payout structure) which make pot odds negligible. Being left with > 10BB in L4 is not a bad situation at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree here. How can you be 95% sure you are worse than a 2.3:1 dog when a small blind with 7bb pushes against a button raise? Also, with 6 players left I a sng plays closer to a cash game/early mtt than you would think. Winning an allin against the sb will significantly increase your tourney equity (much more so than on the bubble), so there's no way I can get away from this getting 2.3:1.
I don't like raising here with the intention of folding, and I'd rather fold preflop.