wpt paris hand

[Jason Strasser]

I got like 100k in chips blinds were 300 600 i think with a 50 ante. I get moved to a new table right between Noah Boedken and Alan Geohring (sp), and immediately pick up AQss in the BB. Unknown french guy in early position raises to 2k (with roughly 60k behind), Noah (exclusive) calls in the SB I call in the BB. Flop comes Qh 9c 5h. Check check french guy bets some collage of chips which adds up to a little more than 4k. Noah folds, I call. Turn 8h. Check, guy bets little more than 10k, I fold.

I feel like I take this type of line in a cash game, but I really feel like he could be betting here with anything and that a good MTT player will tend to define his hand a little more even if its not the most +EV play, because he'll drastically reduce the amount of times he folds the best hand...

So... How should I change my play? Lead the flop? Lead the turn? How much do I bet? Also I feel like if I lead the flop here then I need to lead the flop elsewhere... Because I tend to not lead very many flops when someone raises pf and I call OOP. Maybe this is something I need to change?

-Jason

[SossMan]

I would checkraise the flop to 12k and proceed from there. If you are going to ch-call the flop. I think that you should be leading the turn with the intention of folding to a big raise.

[shaniac]

Check-raise the flop would be my line.

[Apathy]

I think leading the turn for around 10-12k would be the best play. I know some might suggest check raising the flop, but I think that leading the turn is much better, you should be able to define your hand well by doing this, for less then check raising.

Another option, which I don't ten ddo use very much at all but certaintly has merit here against the right player would be to call down the whole way, once again this only works against certain types of players in this situation.

[Jason Strasser]

Why check raise?

[TheTimeIsUp]

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Why check raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

To trap for chips, since he is very likely to make a continuation bet here.

[Benal]

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I tend to not lead very many flops when someone raises pf and I call OOP. Maybe this is something I need to change?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guilty of this as well, and it pisses me off to no end when someone does it to me. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

I think this is a good flop to lead out 6-7K, and let frenchy define his hand, but this makes the turn tricky to play if he flat calls. Not sure what my play would be here.. Oh, and I'm done with this hand if SB comes along...

[shaniac]

Because you flopped TPTK and he is making a continuation bet with almost any hand, more likely the ones that missed than the monsters.

It's also a much more sensible time to release the hand on the flop if he three-bets. You haven't gained any definition by the turn, so I don't understand why you're check-folding when your hand may well be good still.

[MLG]

with 2 opponents, and two possible draws, im leading this flop. I'm also leading the flop with hearts, and J10. Sometimes I'll lead with 109 or something. Especially when I've got a bunch more chips than the guy.

Folding the best hand in the mid stretches of a tourney is much worse than folding it in a cash game.

[Jason Strasser]

To trap for chips?

What does he call my cr with? Explain. Dan Harrington says stuff like 'you have top pair CR' and I don't get it.

[TheJackal]

I'd be more inclined to bet the flop than check-raise. You put some pressure on Exclusive, also you gain more information by what the frenchie's action is. I don't like check-raising here with TPTK, if he smooth calls, you almost have to shut down on the turn. If you bet and get raised on the turn, you are almost certainly beat (unless he is trying to blow you off your hand with something like JTh AQh AKh). I lead the flop, if he calls and a blank hits the turn, I'm betting again. I take my action from there. If I took your line of play, I think a bet on the turn is in order.

[scott8]

[ QUOTE ]
To trap for chips?

What does he call my cr with? Explain. Dan Harrington says stuff like 'you have top pair CR' and I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trapping chips refers to his continuation bet and not his call of your check-raise.

[DemonDeac]

what about check/calling the flop and THEN leading the turn? you still get the chips from the cont. bet and take control of the hand with the turn lead. i would think that frenchie is more likely to fold the flop if he's lead into with 3 people to the flop instead of the usual 2 person flop.

now if frenchie raises the turn to ur lead....well, i think that depends alot on reads.

[Jason Strasser]

I knew you'd be in the lead flop camp. Do you have any plan for a raise? I'd imagine you'd just have to be there and figure it out. You are right about folding the best hand...

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Why check raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

because he's likely to bet, for one. Mainly for info, though. I think that you get a better idea of where you stand be better defining his hand on the flop than if you wait until the turn muddles things up.

I think that there is very little chance of this hand getting checked around and a free card hurting you. Most flush draws will bet. OESD will probably bet.

Also, you would be able to get off for cheap if it goes bet/raise.

I don't usually lead there with deep stacks since it puts me in a pickle on the turn OOP if I get flat called by either opponent.

[SossMan]

there is also shania considerations to checkraise here. you need to protect your future OOP checks.

[gumpzilla]

Offtopic here, but numerous people in this thread talk about having you define your hand. I see this expression bandied about quite a bit on these forums, but used in this context I don't really get it. What do you mean by it? My naive impression is that "defining" your hand as I understand it should make it more likely that the turn bet means nothing, because if he thinks you're on a holding like TPTK you'll frequently fold anticipating that he's just flushed. So I'm not sure I understand what you guys mean by this expression here. In a context where one talks about forcing a villain to define their hand, I get it, but not here.

[SossMan]

i'm pissed...i just typed a nice long elegant response to this post and when i went to click submit, my mouse went haywire and closed the window...grrrr


In short, it's a confusing term. In actuality, it means that you are defining your hand for yourself in relation to his hand. . What you are really trying to do is define his hand and relate it to your hand strength or potential and proceed from there. Make sense?

[betgo]

Why not check/call on the turn?

[adanthar]

Because you are gonna have to autorelease at least a quarter of the rivers and can't call a big bet on the river anyway no matter what it is (maybe an ace.)

Plus, by this point, he looks awfully happy about his hand.

[MLG]

I think I call the raise and look at a turn. The flop action is largely shania dependent I think. When I have a big stack I lead into preflop raisers a good deal, so I better be doing it when I hit my hand. If I get raised I'm calling and figuring out the turn once I get there. I also like the check-call the flop, lead the turn line here more than the check-raise the flop. With a draw out there its not clear you are behind if your check raise gets called and now you've made a big pot oop.

On another note, I think I reraise this preflop a good deal of the time here, because I expect to take it down on the flop a lot for a decent sized pot.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I call the raise and look at a turn. The flop action is largely shania dependent I think. When I have a big stack I lead into preflop raisers a good deal, so I better be doing it when I hit my hand. If I get raised I'm calling and figuring out the turn once I get there. I also like the check-call the flop, lead the turn line here more than the check-raise the flop. With a draw out there its not clear you are behind if your check raise gets called and now you've made a big pot oop.

On another note, I think I reraise this preflop a good deal of the time here, because I expect to take it down on the flop a lot for a decent sized pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

but other than that, he played it fine?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
which I don't ten ddo

[/ QUOTE ]

since when do they start speaking swahili in toronto? /images/graemlins/grin.gif All joking aside, I tend to check call the flop, and then lead at the turn. this is a scheme that i saw ted forrest use repeatedly a couple of weeks ago at the live tourney from the wynn, and it really ended up throwing off some of the best players in the world.

[yabastid]

I don't see how you don't CR this flop if you don't lead it and I like a CR more. Your hand just becomes more and more vague on the flop and turn if you don't take control of this hand. I agree with Soss that you have to repop it to 12K on the flop. If he then pushes, I can feel a lot better about a fold then having to fold to a scary turn without ever defining my hand.

yabastid

[Prime Time]

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but other than that, he played it fine?

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Priceless