Pwning at a lower limit

[Irieguy]

So Zen and I were talking poker and talking smack, like we do all day everyday, and he comes out with the following statement:

"I bet I can make more money than you playing a level lower."

Oh no you din'nt.

So we hashed out the details. We chose the $33's vs. the $55's because those two are closest in value, and the chip stack discrepancy makes it a little interesting. I'm going to play 500 $55's and he's going to play 500 $33's this month. Whomever makes the most money wins the bet. I will not disclose the amount for which we are gambling, because if his wife (holding new baby) read this and found out how much cash he was pissing away on stupid prop bets, she'd flip out.

It'll probably take us a month.

There is no point to this whatsoever.

Irieguy

[tigerite]

Oh well, I'll be going up to the $30s in a day or two. I'll just have to beat him several times.

[Bluff Daddy]

what if she read this?

[ QUOTE ]
I will not disclose the amount for which we are gambling, because if his wife (holding new baby) read this and found out how much cash he was pissing away on stupid prop bets, she'd flip out.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KramerTM]

How are 33 and 55 closer than 22 and 33? Regardless, I agree that the different chip counts make this interesting.

PS -- Can I get in on this and play at the 6s?

[tshort]

Zen's going to be playing the $33s?

I guess it's time to move down to the 22s.

[tigerite]

Sod that. Why be afraid of someone, gives you a chance to improve against the better players for a much smaller outlay than $215. I'm not shying away from him, I'll tell you that.

[pearljam]

awsome another regular in the 30+3's.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
How are 33 and 55 closer than 22 and 33?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a percentage increase, the jump to the $55's is the smallest.

Irieguy

[tshort]

I was kidding.

[curtains]

Im confused, someone help me

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How are 33 and 55 closer than 22 and 33?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a percentage increase, the jump to the $55's is the smallest.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Jump from 22 to 33 = 50% increase.
Jump from 33 to 55 = 66.6% increase.

22 and 33 are closer.

[curtains]

Ok thats the help I needed /images/graemlins/smile.gif I suspect that he's talking about something else, or maybe slyly referring to the fact that $33s run shorter and thus are closer in terms of $ wagered per hour.

[lacky]

tell Mark I said he's an idiot if he doesn't make you do this on a time bases, as in amount won in so many hours. The great equalizer in the bet is the fact that the 33's are shorter.

Steve

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How are 33 and 55 closer than 22 and 33?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a percentage increase, the jump to the $55's is the smallest.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Jump from 22 to 33 = 50% increase.
Jump from 33 to 55 = 66.6% increase.

22 and 33 are closer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This ought to be interesting /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How are 33 and 55 closer than 22 and 33?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a percentage increase, the jump to the $55's is the smallest.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Jump from 22 to 33 = 50% increase.
Jump from 33 to 55 = 66.6% increase.

22 and 33 are closer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy christ, guys. The $22's did not occur to us. Sorry. It's the smallest jump of all the limits we've played.

Irieguy

[SuitedSixes]

In no particular order:

1) Nice avatar.
2) Zen made a bad bet (although it is widely believed that he is one of the best $33 players ever). My guess is that you will win and it has nothing to do with skill level. I would feel the same way about whomever was playing the $55s.
3) Stay off my tables.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
tell Mark I said he's an idiot if he doesn't make you do this on a time bases, as in amount won in so many hours. The great equalizer in the bet is the fact that the 33's are shorter.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when Zen plays. If we both play a set, me the $55's and him the $33's, I'll finish first.

Irieguy

PS- spare obvious jokes about how much quicker SNGs are if you never make the money.

[TheUsher]

Come on man, where can I get some of this action. /images/graemlins/wink.gif In the future, I'd really love to see if this were possible for you in the 215's and Zen playing 109's. That would make it VERY interesting to see if it's possible to make more playing 109's versus the much tougher 215's now. You guys gonna be 4 or 8 tabling btw?

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How are 33 and 55 closer than 22 and 33?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a percentage increase, the jump to the $55's is the smallest.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Jump from 22 to 33 = 50% increase.
Jump from 33 to 55 = 66.6% increase.

22 and 33 are closer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy christ, guys. The $22's did not occur to us. Sorry. It's the smallest jump of all the limits we've played.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Best response ever! That's like a really rich guy trying to break a ten, but he doesn't have any fives. Finally, someone suggests he uses ones, and he goes "Wow, I didn't even think of those." /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, it was fun going back and forth. Keep us posted on the wager!

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on man, where can I get some of this action. /images/graemlins/wink.gif In the future, I'd really love to see if this were possible for you in the 215's and Zen playing 109's. That would make it VERY interesting to see if it's possible to make more playing 109's versus the much tougher 215's now. You guys gonna be 4 or 8 tabling btw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait 'till next week Usher...They're going to the L.V. Zoo to bet on which monkey can auto-eroticize theyownself to orgasm first....Then it will be a parlay to which group of monkeys can establish a "dynasty" that will win the Superbowl four times in the next three years /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

Whatever $$ Zen pisses away on this prop bet he can easily make up tenfold the next time Skipperbob is in town ready to gamboooooool, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Yugoslav

[mcpherzen]

Clearly I need to explain some before you all think I'm more whacked-out than I really am...

Don't get me wrong, the foundation of this bet is smack. Other than flat-out winning a tough Orleans Open event 2 weeks ago, Irie's on a sick cooler right now, especially online (get in a SNG with him and just try to get all your chips to the middle against him with the worst of it and see how it works out...trust me on this one). I figured I'd make the bet to try to get him focused and running in the right direction again, and if that doesn't work, I can at least take advantage of the slide and make a little money off his ice-cold punk ass.

All that aside, however, this challenge is also in the name of science. I have had a theory for some time that the largest component of variance in the SNG comes from the amount of starting chips (assuming starting blinds are always the same), NOT from the caliber of opponents. In other words, the $55's are tougher than the $33's primarily (and perhaps almost exclusively) because you start with more chips. My theory is that the extra $200 in starting chips at the $55 level and above makes bad players "accidentally" play more correctly by tightening up more early in the SNG because they don't feel so short-stacked.

Clearly, I need my ROI to be 67% better than Irie's to win the bet...not an easy task, of course, but I really do think it's doable. I think 25% ROI wins the bet easily, and maybe as low as 20%. Irie is giving me odds on this too(+125), so I actually think the wager is fair and I might even be getting slightly the best of it. I'll be 8-tabling from "ZentheZaster," "ZentheMaster," and/or "ZenDiZaster" so feel free to join me or avoid me as you see fit.

--Z

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be 8-tabling from ...
--Z

[/ QUOTE ]

Why 8-table? Was there a time limit set to finish the 500 SNG's - or are you just proving your badassness? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll be 8-tabling from ...
--Z

[/ QUOTE ]

Why 8-table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's there, my brother...because it's there.


Other acceptable answers are:

Because I can (as if the $33's aren't boring enough).

Because I don't want to spend any more than one month on this project.

Because Irie will also be 8-tabling the $55's during the bet so we eliminate a variable (number of tables played at a time) when analyzing the results.

--Z

[The Yugoslavian]

Yeah, but only one of you has the apparent avility to chat while playing..../images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

My $$ would be on *that* horse /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Ship it to bank!

Yugoslav

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]


...All that aside, however, this challenge is also in the name of science.
--Z

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is a scientific experiment. Also in the name of [2+2]science, we will only post our results if we both go on a sick heater.

If I run better at the $109's or $215's, I will post those results instead. If I lose at SNGs all month, I will post my live results in the Bellagio dailies. If I lose everything, i'll just title something "variance is a bitch," and post my results next month instead.

At the end of the year, Zen and I will co-author a post entitiled "glimpse into the results of SNG world champions" where we post our best 6 months each and say "this is pretty much how we do most of the time." Maybe we'll start a website.

Then 2,000 n0obs and 20 low limit SNG pros will hang themselves because they can't match the results of two Jackoffs on the SNG forum.

Then the experiment will be over.

Irieguy

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is a scientific experiment. Also in the name of [2+2]science, we will only post our results if we both go on a sick heater.


[/ QUOTE ]

Will you at least say who wins without numbers? Otherwise wtf is the point of this post?

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


...All that aside, however, this challenge is also in the name of science.
--Z

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is a scientific experiment. Also in the name of [2+2]science, we will only post our results if we both go on a sick heater.

If I run better at the $109's or $215's, I will post those results instead. If I lose at SNGs all month, I will post my live results in the Bellagio dailies. If I lose everything, i'll just title something "variance is a bitch," and post my results next month instead.

At the end of the year, Zen and I will co-author a post entitiled "glimpse into the results of SNG world champions" where we post our best 6 months each and say "this is pretty much how we do most of the time." Maybe we'll start a website.

Then 2,000 n0obs and 20 low limit SNG pros will hang themselves because they can't match the results of two Jackoffs on the SNG forum.

Then the experiment will be over.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very important post and those who need it the most won't get it.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is a scientific experiment. Also in the name of [2+2]science, we will only post our results if we both go on a sick heater.


[/ QUOTE ]

Will you at least say who wins without numbers? Otherwise wtf is the point of this post?

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm... we will actually post the exact results regardless of the outcome.

My post explains this by suggesting that the majority of results posts on this forum are selectively biased toward the favorable end of the variance spectrum. By pointing this out and then facetiously stating that we will do the same, I was attempting to use not-so-subtle irony as a way of stating "we will post our results" while adding some social commentary at the same time.

But as Zen said, i'm running cold right now... apparently it applies to my writing, too.

Irieguy

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
But as Zen said, i'm running cold right now... apparently it applies to my writing, too.


[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Being on a cooler myself (just lost 2 preflop 70/30s and 1 flop 3 outer in less than 15 hands) turned my subtlety detector off. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]

But as Zen said, i'm running cold right now... apparently it applies to my writing, too.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Your writing was just fine. It may not have been world champion writing, but it was fine.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


...All that aside, however, this challenge is also in the name of science.
--Z

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is a scientific experiment. Also in the name of [2+2]science, we will only post our results if we both go on a sick heater.

If I run better at the $109's or $215's, I will post those results instead. If I lose at SNGs all month, I will post my live results in the Bellagio dailies. If I lose everything, i'll just title something "variance is a bitch," and post my results next month instead.

At the end of the year, Zen and I will co-author a post entitiled "glimpse into the results of SNG world champions" where we post our best 6 months each and say "this is pretty much how we do most of the time." Maybe we'll start a website.

Then 2,000 n0obs and 20 low limit SNG pros will hang themselves because they can't match the results of two Jackoffs on the SNG forum.

Then the experiment will be over.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very important post and those who need it the most won't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think those that "need" this post the most aren't the one's that are hanging themselves, and they likely WILL get it, just not care.

[Mr_J]

I guess the bet would be an amount that would cover the lost EV of moving down to the $55s??

[John Hurst]

I would estimate that Irie is about a 2:1 favorite here over a huge number of SNGs. If he hits a 20% ROI then Zen has to have a 33.3% ROI. I think this is too much to overcome. Even over 500 I would wager on Irie.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
I would estimate that Irie is about a 2:1 favorite here over a huge number of SNGs. If he hits a 20% ROI then Zen has to have a 33.3% ROI. I think this is too much to overcome. Even over 500 I would wager on Irie.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by that? assuming you don't have any bankroll considerations why would the bet being for 500 or for 2000 SNGs change which side you would bet on?

[stupidsucker]

$/SnG at the 33s is a lot closer to the $/SnG at the 55s then most members of this forum know...Variance will be the only factor imo.

Table/seat selection could put Irie over the top, but 8tabling nulifies a lot of this.

Just my opinions. They never really matter, but I am always right in my mind.


edit: unless rakeback counts then Irie kills this. Otherwise the sample size makes this anyones game imo.

[Mr_J]

"$/SnG at the 33s is a lot closer to the $/SnG at the 55s then most members of this forum know...Variance will be the only factor imo."

Then you say:

unless rakeback counts then Irie kills this.

With rakeback irie kills this ($55s pay better than $33s). No rakeback hurts irie...

So you're saying the $55s basically aren't worthwhile apart from adjusting to the larger number of chips in play, and maybe the slightly better competition?? From my limited experience at the $55s I think the $/hr increase is similiar to the $22s-$33s. Definately worthwhile if you can cope with greater variance.

[stupidsucker]

A step up is almost always worth it if you have the proper bankroll AND the experience to deal with the larger swings at the higher level. All of this provided you are a winning player at the new level... An adjustment period is needed for most players. Some players may find that they play much much better at the 55s then the 33s based on style of play.

rakeback just sweetens the deal A LOT.

[Mr_J]

Exactly what I think.

"rakeback just sweetens the deal A LOT."

Without rakeback I'd need to do alot of work on my game to make the jump to the $55s and $109s worthwhile.

[lacky]

Can I be on your website? I only need to use 33 days.

[HighestCard]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I be on your website? I only need to use 33 days.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can afford your own website lacky, due do that 17k recent upsizing in your bankroll...

Keep that luckbox well maintained

[freemoney]

you say this is a "science" experiment but that really makes no sense as it has zero value on that basis, because you are 2 different players with 2 different skill levels. whoever wins isnt a statement about the buy in but about the player, so this has little value in anything other than a prop bet. maybe if you played 1000 33s then 1000 55s you would be able to draw more conclusions out of your results.

[The Yugoslavian]

Someone's sarcasm detector is broken /images/graemlins/blush.gif.

So far I've witnessed Irie and Zen live exactly 0% of their life in the pursuit of 'science.' More like 90% of life towards aesthetic, and the other 10% towards coaching this damn forum. Don't let the Dr. on Irie's business cards, Bank's insistence on professional office decor and their mutual respect for the Dalai Lama fool you...their life quest is still to drink a bajillion Heinekens and 'meet' a bajillion buck nekkid big booty scrippaz while yellin' 'ship it,' 'holla,' 'batch pleaze,' and 'EHOT!?!' with like WSOP bracelets all over their wrists/ankles/noses/ears.

Science is just a means to their higher plane of living.

How often do they tear the club up? Exactly as much as they want to, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Yugoslav

[The Don]

I would want 3:2 on this bet if I was Zen.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe if you played 1000 33s then 1000 55s you would be able to draw more conclusions out of your results.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've both already done that. The game is more dynamic than people give it credit for.

Irieguy

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
$/SnG at the 33s is a lot closer to the $/SnG at the 55s then most members of this forum know...Variance will be the only factor imo.

Table/seat selection could put Irie over the top, but 8tabling nulifies a lot of this.

Just my opinions. They never really matter, but I am always right in my mind.


edit: unless rakeback counts then Irie kills this. Otherwise the sample size makes this anyones game imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid is correct, I believe, about the $/hr being closer than people think. (We are NOT counting rakeback).

Zen and I both think it's close... but Zen thinks it's close enough to wager on, and I don't.

The reason why Zen is a dog is because I play circles around him. Literally. When we play in the Deathstar, I hold my optical laser mouse in one hand, a Heineken in the other, and run around in circles about his chair. He's a pathetic little Curtains-worshipping nit, and he's going to get smoked like the pole he is.

Irieguy

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason why Zen is a dog is because I play circles around him. Literally. When we play in the Deathstar, I hold my optical laser mouse in one hand, a Heineken in the other, and run around in circles about his chair. He's a pathetic little Curtains-worshipping nit, and he's going to get smoked like the pole he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now This is Funny....I assume that your seldom-used wit catches its edge after 12-20 Heiny's and an appropriate period of sleep-deprivation /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
I would want 3:2 on this bet if I was Zen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not getting 3:2, but I am getting 5:4. Don't need it though...that's just a little gravy. And, no, we aren't counting rakeback, which will actually make it all the more sweet for me when it turns out I will have won the bet even if rakeback HAD been counted.

But you all fail to see the true odds this wager lays me. I have nothing to lose. I'm supposed to make about $1k less than Irie over 500 of these things. But when I actually PWN rasta-boy for a few hundy, I expect the public humiliation on this forum to be significant. The daily PM's to him asking for coaching deals should slow considerably, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if he surreptitiously contacts Curtains soliciting some guidance. Irie can think about THAT every time he's on the bubble in a $55 for the next month (if he makes it to the bubble).

I predict our next challenge will be me playing 200 $22's and Irie playing 800 $109's, WITH rakeback. I should still be able to get 5:4.

--Z

[The Yugoslavian]

I'm pullin' for ya Zen, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Here's some motivation:

http://www.index.hr/images2/1407AnaBeatrizBarrosV.jpg

Yugoslav

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
I predict our next challenge will be me playing 200 $22's and Irie playing 800 $109's,

[/ QUOTE ]

When both of you are living in a box on Sahara Blvd. whilst paying $8 Bazillion in alimony & child support, where will you get the $4400 & $87200 that you will need for this challenge? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[lorinda]

I wonder if the real conversation was:

"I can get a higher ROI than you playing a higher level."

Lori

[Irieguy]

I've played my first 50. $900 profit.

Zen has played 0.

I will probably be half-way done with my 500 before Zen plays a single $33 this weekend.

Irieguy

[stupidsucker]

ouch....

Lol, Zen is waiting for the weekend to play his 33s, and your smokin him during the week.... well well well. I am just diggin.

For the record.. I have several runs of 500 at the 55s that have a less profit then runs of 500 at the 22s.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
ouch....

Lol, Zen is waiting for the weekend to play his 33s, and your smokin him during the week.... well well well. I am just diggin.

For the record.. I have several runs of 500 at the 55s that have a less profit then runs of 500 at the 22s.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm thinking of dropping down to the 33's after my 30 buy-in drop at the 55's.

do you make more $/hr at the 22's than the 33's?

[Mr_J]

"do you make more $/hr at the 22's than the 33's?"

No. Although during slow hours I think it's pretty close.

Glad you're all dropping from the $55s.

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
I've played my first 50. $900 profit.

Zen has played 0.

I will probably be half-way done with my 500 before Zen plays a single $33 this weekend.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is if you can sustain this over 450 more, all I need to do is beat the $33's for 55% ROI. This'll be easier than I thought...ship-it holla!

--Z

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
need to do is beat the $33's for 55% ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Z-Justin does it at the $215's...WTF /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[pergesu]

Did you guys ever finish this? Who won?