Games and Political Theory

[Exsubmariner]

Hi guys,
It's time for some nonsensical, could turn out interesting discussion. I have not been spending all my time recently playing poker (gasp). I bought an expansion pack for Civilization III, the Civilization series being another of my favorite games. In this expansion pack, there are scenarios. Scenarios are based on actual historical events with special attention being paid to accuracy of things like military technologies, troop numbers, populations, etc.. I have been playing WWII in the Pacific theator. I am playing Emperor Hirohito of the Japanese.

I started the scenario with the idea that I would not repeat mistakes the Japanese made. I kept my battle fleet together after bombing Pearl Harbor. I won the Battle of Midway. I took Midway, I took all of Burma. I have take all the strategic objectives in China. I control all the naval choke points north of Austrailia. By December 1943 I had successfully invaded Hawaii. I am now considering the logistics of successfully invading San Francisco. I fully expect that the US will Nuke me, but I think it will happen in the Pacific and not on the Japanese mainland.

I have played this same scenario on previous versions of the game and beat it as Japan, but they are not so refined as this version is.

Here's my thoughts. Were it not for one or two simple strategic mistakes by the Japanese in WWII, they could have handily beat the US with what they had in the beginning of the war. As it was, they divided their forces, were overconfident and ultimately spread themselves too thin resulting in serveral key losses. The questions then arise, if the Japanese had routed the US Navy at the battle of Midway, Would the US still have been able to win? Would failure in the Pacific prolong the war in Europe? Would D Day never have occured because Stalin ran over Germany on his own? Would Stalin go after the Japanese "Co Prosperity Sphere" next?

Here's where I think it really gets interesting, though...What happens in the 1960's? Does the Baby boom occur? Is it later? Is there ever a peace movement and counter culture? What war is it for? The Chinese Government doesn't exist in my history, China is under the heal of Japan. Would Japan be able to hold it's Empire? Does the US loose the will to fight? What does the Political landscape look like?

I thought this might be a fun exercise. It will probably be consigned to oblivion of non participation, but it's fun for me think about. There is another scenario I am thinking of, but I want to test the waters with this one before I throw that one out there.

X

[bobman0330]

Japan could never have won WWII militarily. Civ is a great game, but its modeling of small-scale events leaves much to be desired.

IRL, US naval industrial output so far outpaced that of the Japanese that even a reversal of the results of Midway would have resulted in little more than a delay of the US victory by 6-12 months.

Even setting aside raw numbers, the Japanese lost their edge in skill and quality by the end of 1943. Advanced US planes such as the Hellcat and the Corsair outclassed Japanese fighters. USN ships were far superior in terms of anti-air armament and damage control. US pilot training programs were much more able to keep pace with losses than those of Japan.

This is without considering the impact of nuclear weapons.

As for the rest of your post, I have no opinion.

[Felix_Nietsche]

[ QUOTE ]
Japan could never have won WWII militarily. Civ is a great game, but its modeling of small-scale events leaves much to be desired.

IRL, US naval industrial output so far outpaced that of the Japanese that even a reversal of the results of Midway would have resulted in little more than a delay of the US victory by 6-12 months.

Even setting aside raw numbers, the Japanese lost their edge in skill and quality by the end of 1943. Advanced US planes such as the Hellcat and the Corsair outclassed Japanese fighters. USN ships were far superior in terms of anti-air armament and damage control. US pilot training programs were much more able to keep pace with losses than those of Japan.

This is without considering the impact of nuclear weapons.
As for the rest of your post, I have no opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
************************************************** ***
I agree 100%. If Japan did not botch the Battle of Midway they could have ONLY lasted another year or two longer.

Japan screwed up Pearl Harbor by not ordering a second strike taking out fuel depots and destroying the US Submarines and more importantly the submarine torpedo depot. The US submarine forces DEVESTATED the Japanes shipping. The BEST Japan could hope for was a stalemate and this could only be achieved by taking Hawaii, fortify it, and hang on for dear life. Any scenario involving a Japanese invasion of the West Coast is laughable. We Allies had a tough time just conducting an invasion accross the English Channel much less crossing 3000 miles of ocean.

[Exsubmariner]

I can't disagree with any of these points. You are correct that Civ equates technologies between opponents. There is no way to take into account a better built ship or aircraft. I remember seeing a zero in the Naval Aviation Museum and then later looking at a Corsair. It was obvious even to my untrained eyes that one was built way better than the other and there would be no contest. That combined with the fact that the whole US is not on the map, only the west coast.

As far as the submarines, you are correct, Felix. Submarines did sink more shipping tonnage than any other branch of service. They also took the heaviest casualties percentage wise. Of course in the game, I pressed my attack on pearl harbor and trapped the subs that came out with my destroyers and zeros. This was easy to do because I knew they were there and knew what was coming. Interesting point about fortifying Hawaii. I wonder if there was a stalemate if the first Nuclear Weapon would have been used there.

So in conclusion, this turned from a what if discussion into a history discussion and really exposes the limits of games.

Oh well, another day posting in my down time has ended. Hopefully tomorrow I can come up with something more interesting. Have fun.
X