"Islam is a peaceful religion"

[JihadOnTheRiver]

Just reading Michael Savage's "Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder" and got some interesting text from the Koran. Just wondering what you guys think. I'm getting pretty tired of hearing people defend Islam...

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Koran 8:12)

"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them...and [as for] those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish" (Koran 47:4)

"Allah's Apostle said, '...I have been made victorious with terror'" (Bukhari Vol. 4, Bk. 52, No. 220)

"Allah's Apostle said, 'Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us'" (Tabari IX:69)

The type of rhetoric that I'm speaking of is clearly defined by this quote:

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people" -Hillary Clinton.

[whiskeytown]

I can pull scriptures out of context from the Bible to support the same idea that Christianity/Judism is a violent religion - do you actually think you are actually establishing a point or pattern by reprinting out of context verses from the Koran that a misanthrope spoon fed to you thru his biased viewpoint?

at least TRY to come up with something original

RB

[Usagi_yo]

Put up or shut up. Come up with those quotes from the bible you're talking about ... then show us who is quoting them today as they are actually performing them, and advocating that others do likewise.

[Felix_Nietsche]

You Can Not Defend the violence eposued in the Koran so you try attack another religion. Nice try but your attempt is hardly an intellectual argument.

[stealyourface]

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

[stealyourface]

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

[stealyourface]

Do you want more Felix?

[Felix_Nietsche]

Do you want more Felix?
***************************************
I don't understand your message.
A poster attempted to defend the violence of Islam by attacking a different religion. It is the classic bait-and-switch tactic. I could care less if people attack Christianity but I like to see people make intellectually honest arguments.

Anyway, I'm not a christian. I'll let christians defend themselves.

[Chris Alger]

"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: 17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:"
Deuteronomy, 20: 16-17 (KJ)

The Bible is filled with references glorifying subjugation through violence and genocide. Mark Twain described the extermination of the Midianites this way: "There is noting in either savage or civilized history that is more utterly complete, more remorselessly sweeping than the Father of Mercy’s campaign among the Midianites. The official report does not furnish the incidents, episodes, and minor details, it deals only in information in masses: all the virgins, all the men, all the babies, all 'creatures that breathe,' all houses, all cities; it gives you just one vast picture, spread abroad here and there and yonder, as far as eye can reach, of charred ruin and storm-swept desolation; your imagination adds a brooding stillness, an awful hush—the huh of death."
Letters From Earth, XI

[Chris Alger]

Whiskeytown wasn't "attacking" any religion. He pointed out that since Christian scriptures are subject to the same exact criticism as the Koran, then claiming that the Koran is relatively less "peaceful" than Chrisitianity on scriptural grounds is unreasonable. And I'd add: obviously more motivated by racism.

[jokerthief]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]

That proves it! Islam is a peaceful religion! Yea!!!

[FishHooks]

hahaha wooo, he cracked the code.

[whiskeytown]

and let's not forget verses quoted out of context to justify the crusades, the inquisition, and even racism/lynchings in the South just a few years ago -

My point had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with a fact that a couple quick snippets from the Koran doesn't not justify an entire viewpoint - for all I know, those are just quotes of leaders...certainly don't have to be commands from Allah -

According to the Bible, the Devil even tried quoting scripture out of context to tempt Jesus - it's an old trick - and I got sick of it years ago in the Christian church, and I know enough snake oil to know when someone is doing it to some other religion's holy writings.

RB

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
Just reading Michael Savage's "Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder"

[/ QUOTE ]

Without commenting on the subject under discussion, anyone who has listened to Savage for more than about 30 seconds knows that he's personally very well equipped to discuss mental disorders.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
My point had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with a fact that a couple quick snippets from the Koran doesn't not justify an entire viewpoint - for all I know, those are just quotes of leaders...certainly don't have to be commands from Allah -

[/ QUOTE ]

Those verses aren't the quotes of various leaders, Whiskey--they are the direct instructions of Allah to mankind for all time, written down by Mohammed as the exact message told to him by the Archangel Gabriel (on behalf of Allah).

The Koran contains the direct instructions of Allah, to mankind, for all time.

You used to study the Bible, as I recall.

Many verses in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, are given in the historical sense. This is especially true of many of the violent passages.

This is not the same case with the Koran. Nor does the Koran have various authors, and doubts of authorship; nor was it selectively pieced together from many books as was the present-day Bible. It is generally acknowledged by scholars that Mohammed was the sole writer of the Koran.

Also please notice that the Biblical passages referenced in comparison thus far, throughout this thread, are from the Old Testament. The Old Testament mostly relates to pre-Christ history and theology.

Christianity is more of the New Testament than the Old Testament.

If someone wants to compare Islam to Christianity (or actually, to the belief in and followings of the teachings of Jesus Christ), they should be digging out verses from the New Testament. There they won't find verses comparable to the myriad verses in the Koran enjoining present day Muslims to terrorize, kill, torture and subjugate non-believers (remember, the Koran is a book of Allah's instructions good for all time).

There is however ONE verse, to my knowledge, in the New Testament that is is any way comparable to the dozens of such verses in the Koran--and that line exists only in ONE of the Gospels (Luke) and is not corroborated in any other of the Gospels.

So before you or anyone else should presume that Islam is no more violent or totalitarian in nature than Christianity, it might make some sense if you did some research before grabbing on to such a easy and natural opinion.

Another aspect of difference between the two religions is that Jesus did not insist on ruling this Earth, or on forcing people to follow God's law. If someone wanted to go down an evil path, Jesus would let them (though perhaps he might speak to try to dissuade them or make them think twice). Jesus also instructed followers to lay up treasures in heaven rather than on this Earth.

The Koran on the other hand clearly instructs believers that they should rule all of the Earth, thereby carrying out Allah's will--and using force wherever necessary to achieve their goal.

Jesus was a man of peace, not resisting even his own tormentors and executioners. Jesus advised loving one's enemy and turning the other cheek.

Mohammed, by contrast, was a warrior-king: leading over a dozen military expeditions of conquest in his lifetime and participating in dozens more. He promised his soldiers the twin rewards of booty in this world and sensual delights in the next.

Islam is highly concerned with forcing the world to submit to its rule, to God's law. "Islam" in fact means submission (to Allah's will). That part is OK, but the part that is not OK is the philosophical basis and instructions throughout the Koran of forcing others to do so also.

So, before forming a conclusion about the comparison of two religions, it might make sense to know a fair bit about both religions--not just about one.

I say this not to be critical of you, but rather because it is a common mistake I see many otherwise educated Westerners making today. It is more natural to presume the two are roughly equivalent, of course--and that is also a more hopeful presumption. Deeper inspection of the religious texts and philosophical bases of the two religions will however reveal some monumental dissimilarities.

All this of course may mean little when men are predisposed to do evil based upon ANY sort of perceived philosophical or religious justification. However it is still worth discerning what the underlying messages of each religion really are teaching. It is also worth noting the drastically contrasting personal examples of the lives of the founders of both religions.

All of this doesn't mean that Muslims are inherently more violent than Christians. However it does indicate that Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity.

[lehighguy]

Good post. Personally I think all religion has a measure of intolerance as a result of its believe in absolute God given morality. This lends itself the violence.

However, different religous tenants make some religions more prone to it then others. Chiefly, the difference between the tone of the new testament and the tone of the Koran.

I think of Jesus like Gandi and Mohammed like Napolean. I've heard a lot of good things about Napolean. That his reforms were good, that he was good at governance, that he was a brilliant leader. Even if we assume these things to be true, that Napolean had many good ideas that we can learn from, it doesn't change the fact that he was a militarist and imperialist. Similairly, even if we accept the Mohammaed had many good ideas that are useful today, it will never change the fact that he was a militarist and imperialist.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I can pull scriptures out of context from the Bible to support the same idea that Christianity/Judism is a violent religion - do you actually think you are actually establishing a point or pattern by reprinting out of context verses from the Koran that a misanthrope spoon fed to you thru his biased viewpoint?

at least TRY to come up with something original

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen champ, I'm looking for a discussion. Your response implies that I don't think Christianity/Judism could be viewed in that matter. I'm merely saying that I'm getting tired of the "peaceful religion" rhetoric. And as for originality, I actually said that I got those quotes from a book. I'm not plaguerizing. I'm looking for a discussion. BTW, your heated response to a valid point of discussion is exactly why Libs are starting to look really bad. Not that you're a Lib, just making a point....

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just reading Michael Savage's "Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder"

[/ QUOTE ]

Without commenting on the subject under discussion, anyone who has listened to Savage for more than about 30 seconds knows that he's personally very well equipped to discuss mental disorders.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...Good point. FYI, I'm not defending him. It's OK to read outside of your own view point...

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can pull scriptures out of context from the Bible to support the same idea that Christianity/Judism is a violent religion - do you actually think you are actually establishing a point or pattern by reprinting out of context verses from the Koran that a misanthrope spoon fed to you thru his biased viewpoint?

at least TRY to come up with something original

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen champ, I'm looking for a discussion. Your response implies that I don't think Christianity/Judism could be viewed in that matter. I'm merely saying that I'm getting tired of the "peaceful religion" rhetoric. And as for originality, I actually said that I got those quotes from a book. I'm not plaguerizing. I'm looking for a discussion. BTW, your heated response to a valid point of discussion is exactly why Libs are starting to look really bad. Not that you're a Lib, just making a point....

[/ QUOTE ]

I have another question for you. You say I'm unoriginal for my post. Now I will argue against that all day because, as I have said, I was not claiming to have made a new insightful point, but simply presenting a topic for discussion (this is a forum: A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.)

So my question... how do you call me unoriginal, and then make your only response that I am taking the Koran out of context, and you could easily take passages from the bible in the same manner. Have you listened to or watched any form of debate on this issue? That's the trigger loaded response to my question from every defender of the great religion of Islam in the world.

By calling me unoriginal, you are in essence implying that you are original. You are not.

-Jihad

How does this change the fact that the Islamofascists are 12th century freaks who need to get with modern times and stop treating women like pieces of garbage? Islam is based on homophobia, sexism and racism. We should not tolerate their terrorism. Bomb Mecca. It's the only thing those people understand.

[ACPlayer]

... it were true that Islam is a violent religion (which it is not).

Question 1: What is wrong with Hilary's quote? Even with this setup it is true that Islam is fastest growing religion in America and a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people.

Question 2: What is your real motivation for bringing this us? It certainly does not appear to be attacking Hilary (see question 1 for why not).

[MMMMMM]

I should add that my response referred to the Koran, not to the other two texts cited.

I would also like to pose a question:

Why do those who presume that Islam is not inherently violent or totalitarian, not presume otherwise instead?

Given that Mohammed was in fact a militarist and warrior-ruler, why would one expect that the religion which he originated would be inherently peaceful? Would not it make a bit more sense to presume otherwise?

Presumptions however only go so far. If you wish to know the truth of such matters, investigate on your own.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

Question 1: I am just a little tired of handling this situation with velvet gloves. A great deal of politicians lately seem to want to appeal to the politically correct crowd and say things just for the sake of appealing to the greatest population possible (both D's and R's are guilty of this). I greatly desire one of our statesmen to come out with a brash, arrogant, we are America so kiss our rings type position. Granted, its political suicide, but I believe that it is how the majority of the population feels, regardless of what any form of media would have you believe.

Question 2: I think that I said it plenty. I would like to hear what others think, and as far as my 2 pennies, I believe that Islam is a fundamentally violent and evil religion. I wish that more people would see that, or at least just be willing to say it in public.

[Felix_Nietsche]

Question 2: I think that I said it plenty. I would like to hear what others think, and as far as my 2 pennies, I believe that Islam is a fundamentally violent and evil religion. I wish that more people would see that, or at least just be willing to say it in public.
************************************************** ********
Although I'm an atheist, I say Islam is an evil religion. Especially the Wahabi sect from Saudia Arabia. Violence and worship of a pedophile seem to be the foundations of Islam. Their prophet, Mohammad marries a 6 year old little girl and has sex with her at 9. Call it what you want but he is a pedophile and the muslims of the world revere a pedophile.

"Marriage to Six-Year Old
In 624 Abu Bakr (Muhammad’s daily companion and one of his first believers and successor of Muhammad) gave Muhammad his daughter Aisha when she was six years old, although the actual marriage was not consummated until she was nine. This fact is uncontested by all Muslim scholars and chroniclers without exception). At the time of their marriage Muhammad was 54 years old (the age of her grandfather) – a difference of 45 years in their ages.

Aisha herself testified to these facts:
“The messenger of God betrothed me when I was six years old and then married me when I was nine years old.”
Source: Sahih Muslim (by Imam al-Mawawy), vol. 3, p. 577.

Islamic law has codified this principle of non-consent for under-age women based on Muhammad’s precedent:
“A father may give consent to have his young virgin daughter married without obtaining her permission, for she does not have a choice, exactly as Abu Bakr El Sadiq did to his daughter Aisha, when she was six years old. He married her to the prophet Muhammad without her permission.”
Source: Ibn Hazam (acknowledged by all Muslims as one of the greatest scholars on Islamic Law) in his al-Muhalla (“The Sweetened”). Vol. 6, part 9, pp. 458-460.

Abd El Schafi, author of Behind the Veil stated in response: “These are cruel, hard words and iniquitous Islamic principles which the free human conscience utterly rejects and detests because it is related to the most important subject in the girl’s life, that is, her body and her future” (p. 83)."
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/news-jerry-falwell-mohammed.html

Great post.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I am just a little tired of handling this situation with velvet gloves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was looking for something a little more specific than "this situation". What situation? If you are making the mistake that others on this forum make, that is using a comparative religion analysis to trace the roots of the terrorist activity -- then say so and I can -- easily -- rebut that. If you are simply making a statement to try and vilify a group of people just because you dont like them, then carry on but bear Chris Alger's admonitionment in this thread in mind.

You did not reply to my question about Hilary's statement. Did she make an accurate statement or not? Why include that in this post?

[Shaun]

I think the larger point is that religion, including Islam, is used to manipulate people into committing atrocious acts, just like nationalism and a lot of other isms. But liberals in America and it seems the world over- people who basically detest Christianity- are constantly trying to convince everyone that Islam in no way causes the current terrorism.

This is inconsistent and illogical. Why don't liberals have the balls to say that Islam is moronic too? Perfect example: Bill Maher, who claims to be a Libertarian and generally hates Christianity, is constantly giving little speeches about "why they hate us", but he never mentions that their religion might have something to do with it. He is quick to criticize Christians and policies that "justify" muslim hatred of the west, but never holds Islam to the same standard.

It's a totally inconsistent position philosophically.

[ QUOTE ]
How does this change the fact that the Islamofascists are 12th century freaks who need to get with modern times and stop treating women like pieces of garbage? Islam is based on homophobia, sexism and racism. We should not tolerate their terrorism. Bomb Mecca. It's the only thing those people understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted this yesterday, and thought that maybe it was too harsh. Upon reading it again, I realize that I was 100% correct in posting this. These people cannot be reasoned with and if they will not stop their terrorism then we must bomb them.

It is time to stop sacrificing the lives of our troops in Iraq. One U.S. soldier's life is worth way more to me than the life of an Iraqi civilian and it is definitely worth more than the life of a Muslim terrorist in Iraq. Let's use the bombs instead and blanket the terrorist areas. Most of the targets should be in Saudi Arabia around Mecca, because that is a terrorist haven.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]

It is time to stop sacrificing the lives of our troops in Iraq. One U.S. soldier's life is worth way more to me than the life of an Iraqi civilian and it is definitely worth more than the life of a Muslim terrorist in Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the kind of thinking that causes much of this chaos in the world.

We're all the same - it doesn't matter if we're American, Iraqi, or whatever. This "we're better than them" reasoning is pathetic and absurd.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It is time to stop sacrificing the lives of our troops in Iraq. One U.S. soldier's life is worth way more to me than the life of an Iraqi civilian and it is definitely worth more than the life of a Muslim terrorist in Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the kind of thinking that causes much of this chaos in the world.

We're all the same - it doesn't matter if we're American, Iraqi, or whatever. This "we're better than them" reasoning is pathetic and absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree.

However.... I have to say, if Iran really want to start their nuclear processing stuff, they are just begging to get bombed. There's no way a government that has direct ties/sympathies with suicide bombers can even get a sniff of nukes.

Having said that, this news leads me to three possible reasons for the reporting about Iran restarting nuclear stuff:

1) It's some sort of brinksmanship, and Iran want something from the world - funding, support etc?
2) This is deliberate misinformation in a runup to attacking iran - Cheney + his cronies would be behind that.
3) Iran are blinded to what's gonna happen by their own sense of superiority (much like Saddam was, I gues).

I reckon (2) myself, but could be (3). I doubt (1), but Libya did it in the end, so you never know.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It is time to stop sacrificing the lives of our troops in Iraq. One U.S. soldier's life is worth way more to me than the life of an Iraqi civilian and it is definitely worth more than the life of a Muslim terrorist in Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the kind of thinking that causes much of this chaos in the world.

We're all the same - it doesn't matter if we're American, Iraqi, or whatever. This "we're better than them" reasoning is pathetic and absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said that we're better than the Iraqi civilians. I simply said that the life of the soldier is worth far more to me, especially when so many of the Iraqi civilians support the insurgents.

[ILL34GL3]

[ QUOTE ]
I can pull scriptures out of context from the Bible to support the same idea that Christianity/Judism is a violent religion - do you actually think you are actually establishing a point or pattern by reprinting out of context verses from the Koran that a misanthrope spoon fed to you thru his biased viewpoint?

at least TRY to come up with something original

RB

[/ QUOTE ]
It's already been done. (http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm)

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
It is time to stop sacrificing the lives of our troops in Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said this long ago. Bring the troops home.

The rest of your post is crap.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I never said that we're better than the Iraqi civilians. I simply said that the life of the soldier is worth far more to me, especially when so many of the Iraqi civilians support the insurgents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are being unfair, an Iraqi is worth no more or less than an American soldier. Also if the US invaded the UK, I would have to make it my lifes work to kill as many American soldiers as possible before they shot me, as you probably would if the Chinese 'liberated' the US from Bush.

I can never understand why one person is worth more than another based only on skin colour or nationality.

Regards Mack

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is time to stop sacrificing the lives of our troops in Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said this long ago. Bring the troops home.

The rest of your post is crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are being inconsistent. You seem to be a generally tolerant person. Why are you supporting these scumbags who give the death penalty to people engaging in homosexual conduct and give the death penalty to rape victims?

You have a sad devotion to that ancient religion.

[FishHooks]

This is just a crazy way of thinking. Of course a U.S. soilder's live is much more important than that of the insurgents or anyone who supports any kind of terrorism. This is why the left is screwed up, trying to provide any type of justification for these people.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just a crazy way of thinking. Of course a U.S. soilder's live is much more important than that of the insurgents or anyone who supports any kind of terrorism. This is why the left is screwed up, trying to provide any type of justification for these people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this gets said a lot but when did the words 'left' and 'liberal' become insults. Sorry for 'trying to provide justification' what I said does remain true, though I admit the reasons are much different.

I think you are confusing the main message of my post though, when I said an Iraqi is worth the same as an American soldier, I wasn't really refering to insurgents, hopefully you can now stop refering to me as 'the left'.

Regards Mack

...is that Muslims as a whole are being unfairly judged in response to the violent actions of extremists who claim to share their religion. Westerners see these terrorist acts and connect them with Islam, condemning a whole religion based on the actions of a relatively small number of psychopaths who have adopted a bastardized view of their divine purpose. The end result is increased racism and cultural tensions, manifested for example by people who look to condemn Islam based on their rudimmentary knowledge of the Quran, or worse yet, from thirdhand quotes they picked up from someone else's rudimentary knowledge of the Quran. The other 99% percent of Muslims in the world, even those who dislike Christians or Westerners in general, hate these terrorists and other extremists just as much as Christians/Westerners do.

[Bez]

[ QUOTE ]
The other 99% percent of Muslims in the world, even those who dislike Christians or Westerners in general, hate these terrorists and other extremists just as much as Christians/Westerners do.


[/ QUOTE ]
Figures have been posted here in the past originating from a reliable source that show this just is not true, many Muslims DO support the terrorists.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be a generally tolerant person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually this is consistent. I am tolerant of the failings of others and extremely intolerant of mine. Extending this to societies, I generally am tolerant (as in I may be critical off, but dont want to interfere needlessly in, other societies -- they will solve their problems -- we have our own). I am very intolerant of our own stupidity, mistakes, and incompetence -- the Iraq policy in particular is all of these and continues to be.

[ QUOTE ]
You have a sad devotion to that ancient religion

[/ QUOTE ]

I am devoted only to the pursuit of my hedonistic pleasures. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Actually I believe that all religions are interesting at a conceptual theological level, as they try to capture the essence of life -- much like philosophers, poets etc.

I also believe that in practice there is no worthwhile religion which is not completely intertwined in politics. I also believe that those who slavishly "belong" to a religion, probably need a good therapist instead.

Why are you supporting these scumbags who give the death penalty to people engaging in homosexual conduct and give the death penalty to rape victims?

[ACPlayer]

Who me? I dont support them.