How often should a solid player finish in each position?

[adam61]

I often see posts where people say shoot for 14/13/12 ITM and that kind of thing. But where do solid players finish in other positions. I ask because I think I finish in 6-10th too much and I'm not sure why. I think I might be a bit too much in Limit mode still. How good of hands are you willing to drop in a better spot. I'm getting to a basically weak-tight gameplan for levels 1-3, folding things like KQo preflop in MP, AJo in MP, AQo to any kind of real raise. And after the flop dropping any hand worse than TPTK or a great draw preflop. Folding when it's probably decently +EV to draw. How far do you take this though. I think some of it is bad luck. But here's my finish distribution right now.

13/12/11/12/9/9/10/13/8/3

Just seemed leaky, What do solid players numbers look like? I just want to know if I need to probably get tighter, or just get weaker with made hands and decent draws, even moreso than I am. That many 8th places can't be good.

To recap that's 1-3rd 36% 4-6 30% 7-10 34%

Seems bad.

[tigerite]

It's too small a sample size, sorry.

[adam61]

Those are percentages.

[tigerite]

Ah.. okay. Well, I wouldn't say the stats are terrible or something. 6th is still one of my highest finishes for instance. Strangely though, I hardly ever finish 8th, so maybe there is something going on there.

[11t]

Busting out 4-6th to get a higher 1st is a good thing.

[tigerite]

For sure, yes. I agree. But 6th seems quite a bit higher than 5th, which is also a bit higher than 4th, then 1/2/3 go up quite a bit, until 1st is higher than 6th. 2nd is about equal with it now. It's a weird finish distribution. 10th's are a bit too high for my liking too to be honest

[wiggs73]

Yeah, 5th is my most common finish, followed closely by 1st.

In general, I'm either busting in 5th or 6th or having a stack to work with by the time we're at the bubble. Of course, getting a stack early against a donk is always nice too.

[Nicholasp27]

having the bulk of your finishes from 1-6 will occur if you play tight early on and then work to steal blinds as levels increase...if u have a lot of 7-10, then maybe u are playing too many hands earlier on or not letting go of them post-flop when you should be...or maybe you are pushing aa/kk/qq/ak instead of raising 3xbb and fish call you and then 30% of those times u are knocked out early...


but with 30% of all tournies being 8-10, it seems like maybe you are too loose in early levels...

[cgwahl]

I was actually wondering about this myself. I started playing SnG's last week (just $5.50 ones) and I am getting in the money a lot (I know, I know my sample size is incredibly small)...but I have only gotten 1st once.

However, I realize part of the problem is I get a little too aggressive heads up.

[hyde]

I think if you tighten up considerably early on you will see dramatic improvement.
very tight early.

[Pat Southern]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you tighten up considerably early on you will see dramatic improvement.
very tight early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this the consensus? I mainly come from a MTT background, but decided to try sngs for a month. I like to play somewhat loose in the first 2 rounds because of the nice implied odds when I hit. I guess the flatter structure in sngs makes taking these risks less +$EV?

You might get imlied odds in some cases. But the times you don't, (or the times you chase a flush when you flop the draw, or second pair, etc) you considerably damage your stack. One of the most important things in a sng is preserving chips until you can get your money in with the best of it. The more chips the better.

I sued to think along the same lines as you, but after experience I can say that playing alot of hands early is simply not worth it. Majority of the time you fold postflop and slowly chip your stack away.

[Pat Southern]

I'm not talking about drawing with incorrect odds or anything, more along the lines of limping with hands like 75s on the button after 2 limpers...

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
levels 1-3, folding things like KQo preflop in MP, AJo in MP,

[/ QUOTE ] Good.

[ QUOTE ]
folding...AQo to any kind of real raise.

[/ QUOTE ] What is a "real raise"? Change that to "folding AQ to a raise" and I think you've got a winner.

[ QUOTE ]
And after the flop dropping any hand worse than TPTK or a great draw preflop. Folding when it's probably decently +EV to draw.

[/ QUOTE ] I assume you mean postflop, not preflop since you start the sentence with "after the flop..." Basically, the rule is, don't take risks early. It is more important to make it to the bubble than it is to double up early at the risk of busting out. If you're getting a lot of finishes less than 7th, you're taking too many chances early. I have almost as many 4ths as I do 7th-10th put together.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not talking about drawing with incorrect odds or anything, more along the lines of limping with hands like 75s on the button after 2 limpers...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a MTT habit you have to give up at the SNGs. The blinds increase much faster and the betting tends to be much more aggressive. Playing every cheap flop you can see is a great way to trap people in a MTT environment. You can bleed off 100-150 chips early looking for a great flop and you still have a workable stack and 40 minutes of low blinds. When you lose those chips in a SNG you put yourself in a bad place. Soon your needing to double up 2-3 times to make the money. Those lost chips should be doubling too. Not having them can have a big impact on your FE and limit you options severely. That 150 chips doubled three times is 1200. That makes a HUGE difference in your ITM potential.

I read somewhere a long time ago that hands like 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif are like potato chips. You can't have just one.

[AA suited]

there's also another theory to gamble at lvl1. if you think it's a coin flip situation, go all in to a raise. ie: you have ak, or 88+

it's all about $/hr.

the theory is that you either double up and increase your chances dramatically of ITM, or you just start a new game.

[me1tdown]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah.. okay. Well, I wouldn't say the stats are terrible or something. 6th is still one of my highest finishes for instance.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for bringing this up again, but I find a similar thing - 1-3 are the highest % finishes with 6th the next one. I think that this is indicative of tight play which (at least at the $11s ) will find you in 5th or 6th place usually in level 3 or 4 if you haven't had a hand yet. As the 7th and 8th place finishers flame out in the next couple of orbits this will become one of the short stacks and start to feel pressure from the blinds and I start to think about making a move. A 6th place finish is the chalk outline marking where an aggressive play was run down. If I can double up here I make it to top 3 way more then 4th or 5th ( some of my lowest % finishes). I suspect that a high 4th place % is the foot print for a different style of play, or at least a shifting of gears that I haven't found yet. YMMV.