ok guys, good or bad fold?

[modestmouse]

1st post, hope it makes sense. 3-6 game in sunny cali.
im in 1st postion w/ JJ, no raises preflop. flop comes 7s 9h 10d, i check, 1st postion bets, 2nd folds, 3rd raises, 4th re raises, 5 folds, 6th calls, i call. turn is Ks, i check, again 1st bets, 4th rasies, 5th re raises 6th calls,
I FOLD. pot is 150 bucks. big mistake. river is 8 (of course) giving me the str. position 6 wins without ever raising or reraising with 2 small pair. i know i should have considerd pot odds a bit here, but it looked hopeless with big card, and possible str, trips. thanks.

[sucka]

Yeah, it's a little hard to follow mainly because you don't define your position on this hand. Based upon the way you describe the action I would say that you were in the blinds or UTG. You also don't describe the texture of the game. Was every hand 5-7 way getting capped nearly every round or is this just an anomoly?

Anyway...

Looks like on the flop you check and it's 3 bet before it gets back to you. The pot is laying 16-1 and you are facing 3 bets, which means the pot is laying ~5-1 for you.

You have a gutshot here giving you 4 outs. On a gutshot draw you need to have about 11-1 or so to call here. Even if you look at implied odds for the next couple rounds you _may_ end up with enough money in there to keep you drawing but the problem is that your hand might not be good even if you spike your 8. With that many opponents in someone could be holding QJ for example.

The other main problem here is that this hand is going to be very expensive for you to draw on. That's not a good thing. With the flop action you can count on it being 2 or 3 bets to you again on the turn and if 1 or 2 players drop your odds go in the tank.

You can probably add 2 more outs for your Jacks here but a Jack on this board puts 3 to a big straight and KQ is the nuts.

The way I see it...You can dump this hand and wait for a better opportunity or hang on and end up making a 2nd or 3rd best hand even if you hit your outs.

I'm pretty sure I would have folded facing 3 bets on the flop here. It's just to thin of a call, imho.

[RockLobster]

Hi There--

This type of post might go better in the small stakes hold'em section. Here goes:

im in 1st postion w/ JJ, no raises preflop.
Um, do you mean that raising is not allowed PF? Or did everyone choose to not raise? I would raise with JJ from just about anywhere (assuming you are allowed to).

flop comes 7s 9h 10d, i check, 1st postion bets, 2nd folds, 3rd raises, 4th re raises, 5 folds, 6th calls, i call.
I understand your check if you were planning to check-raise. Now I'm a bit lost because I'm not sure about the pre-flop action... let's assume that no one raised pre-flop by their own choice. It's possible that you're behind to a set, but I'd at least call here.

turn is Ks, i check, again 1st bets, 4th rasies, 5th re raises 6th calls, I FOLD.
Now it looks like you're in trouble. There's a flush draw, an overcard, and a lot of reraising. I'm guessing you have 6 outs (2 J's and 4 8's) and none are good if the flush hits. Because you checked, you can now exit gracefully... without doing the math I think this is a fold.

pot is 150 bucks. big mistake. river is 8 (of course) giving me the str.
Don't allow yourself to be results-oriented, the fold was either right or wrong PRIOR to knowing the results.

position 6 wins without ever raising or reraising with 2 small pair.
Are you serious? What a wild game!

i know i should have considerd pot odds a bit here, but it looked hopeless with big card, and possible str, trips. thanks.
Other people here can help with the odds better than I can. I think the turn fold was the right thing to do with this much action.

[pudley4]

Some advice:

"I'm in 1st position"

What does that mean? Are you Under the Gun (1st to act preflop)? Are you in seat 1? Are you in one of the blinds? Always specify your position in the hand.

Next, make sure we know which players saw the flop and what their actions were. (for example: UTG limps, next 3 players fold, next player raises, only the BB and UTG call - we know how many players are in, what they did, and where they are sitting in relation to each other)

Make sure we know all the actions everyone takes on the flop/turn/river. In your case, you didn't let us know if anyone folded after your call on the flop.


Finally, you'll get more responses if you post your hands in the Small Stakes forum.

Back to your hand:

On the flop I think you need to decide where the bet will come from. If you think a player on your left will bet/raise, then you should bet out. If you think it will be checked to a late position player, then check and go for the checkraise. In this hand I would have bet out. (I also would have raised preflop).

On the turn, notice that you have a double-gutshot draw, which is the same odds as an open-ended straight draw. I'd consider disregarding the 8s and Qs as outs because they complete the flush (although it would be a backdoor flush). I count 26 BB in the pot, so you're getting 26-3 (almost 9-1) to hit a 5-1 shot. It's a call, but it's closer than it looks because you could be chopping with another J, and the two spade outs might not be outs at all.

[modestmouse]

excellent comments, i was on the button btw. i felt the same way, and came up with the same conclusion, but it felt wrong at the time. texture wise, this was the first 4-5 way action in the 1/2 hour i was there. seemed pretty tight, with 1 extremly loose player (who wasnt in the hand)
so further cuase for worry. i was shocked out of my mind no one had trips or nut str (qj) thanks

[modestmouse]

correction, i was big blind...

[punkass]

It seems to me that you are allowed to raise, so I would've raised preflop. That might've helped you out on the flop (would anyone call me with J8? 9T? that sort of thing)

Once it's called down preflop with what seems like 7 people, we see the flop. You have an overpair, with a straight on the board, rainbow. I would bet out here, hoping to get the pairs out, leaving you with a straight draw (an 8 or J). If someone did infact have 8J or 68, then there's nothing you can do, except next time raise preflop to get them out.

You probably did have enough outs to call, but it's not a bad fold. If you were supposed to be in, it was at best marginal.

RAISE PREFLOP, or if you have house rules saying you can't, CHANGE YOUR RULES.

[modestmouse]

i agree, and hence the posting, it was a tough call. problem i have with prefolp raise off jj (10 10 for that matter) is that i seem to get killed by drawers in a lowlimit game like this and gave up on preflop raising unless i hold aa ak kk or qq. i caught jj 4 times in this 3 hour session and raised everytime except this one becuse i keeped getting busted. but maybe i shouldve been thinking long term and not session. thanks for your input...

[Nightmare]

you said you were in the BB, so there is nothing wrong with just calling here pre flop. Although I don't believe you should always call from the BB with JJ. Other then that you played the hand like a wuss, you should either be check/raising the flop or betting out and re raising. On the turn you have odds to call for your straight draw, so call.

[SoBeDude]

Depending on the texture of the game, I'm not sure a raise from the blinds is always correct.

In some of the "no fold'em" games I play, raising here with JJ accomplishes nothing positive except building a pot. I'm not getting control of the hand, I'm not pushing anyone out...

And when you consider everyone playing naked ace and king, and many queens, AND considering you'll flop an Q K or A more than 50% of the time. Why raise into a huge field?

In my game I can raise UTG and get 9 callers (11-handed)!!

You still want to raise with JJ from the blinds?

OTOH, if I have only 2 callers I'm raising...

-Scott

[SunTzu68]

Sobe,

Excellent point. If it is an extermely loose passive game where the raise won't be respected on later streets it does loose some of its value. However, given the fact that there was no preflop raise I would think that JJ is the best hand out pre-flop and I would seriously consider raising for value preflop and betting out on the river to see what kind of action I got.

And where do you find these 'no-foldem games'?

[SoBeDude]

And where do you find these 'no-foldem games'?

Come to south Florida, I'll introduce you to some amazingly soft 10-20 games.

I watched a guy drop $700 in 1.5 hours, on major tilt Sunday afternoon.

And it was this day that I raised UTG into an 11 player field with AA and got 9 callers. of course, flop comes KKQ. Of course I fold for the flop bet and at the end of the hand I'm shown 3 kings. some guy with K6o in MP takes down a huge pot.

Then there is the old guy who cold calls my preflop raise with 72s, only to hit the boat on the turn... that one cost me a fortune. I had KK. This guy will cap any preflop hand if it's 3 bets to him.

These games are a lot of fun, but have high varience. You can't put people on hands. they'll call you with crap and hit two pair with 84o. Very frustrating some times.

I dropped $550 there Monday night.

-Scott

[SunTzu68]

Boy, I can imagine that being frustrating sometimes...but I bet it is also very profitable?

[Nottom]

Yes ... if the aces, kings, and queens only get there 50% of the time like you said you are getting even odds against a field that includes the overcard that lands ... sounds like a value bet if I ever saw one ... hell with that many people its a value bet with 77 just for when you hit your set.

[modestmouse]

thats the problem ive had with raising jj, i always seem to get a Q A flop and or a jackass with 5-6 flops str or 2 pair. it seems stupid to raise jj unless the game is such that your going to be heads up if you raise (like when i was in 5-10 game yesterday)

[modestmouse]

wuss? im supossed to re-raise a re-raiser when it gets back to me with a possible str on board on the flop and a K on the turn? possible flush as well. im fairly aggresive and thats funny you think im a wuss on this hand

[modestmouse]

sounds like the 3-6 6-12 games i play here in the bay area. those games can be great if you run hot and play only the cards that will punish junk. though im not sure what cards those are when jackasses can seemingly win with anything sometimes

[SunTzu68]

As I stated in my original post, JJ loses alot of it's value with 7 players in to see the flop. Problems come up not only because of the odds of a higher card coming out on the flop, but also with people hitting two pair, a set, flush...etc. Even with the best hand going in with that many players you are not a 50/50 to have the best hand if shown down.

Even if I had AA I wouldn't be 50/50 with 7 players in. If I won the pot 1 out of 3 times with AA I'd be a happy camper.

All that being said, given the situation I still would consider a raise here for value. You probably do have the best hand preflop and you are getting 7 extra small bets in there for value. Would you raise AA in this situation?

[rubixxcube]

First, when not in the blind, i would almost always raise or reraise with JJ anywhere from under the gun to the button. Here are my thoughts on Playing JJ in SB/BB.

I think you should almost never raise with it but always reraise. You are playing the hand out of position with several callers. If there are only a few limpers, 1 or 2 then i will more often raise with it.. When you expand the field to 4,5+ players. There has been no prior raise, then nobody in the pot is going to fold, and honestly with the pot odds now, they are rightfully calling.

It is not hard for something like JJ to get beat with a large field.(i am referring to a typical game) this will vary slightly in tighter/looser game varieties.


When Overcards flop than likely you are beat. many people in a hand when Q's, K's or A's flop=bad for JJ.

First example:
You raise in blind with JJ. 2 bets(we won't even take flushes into account here, or even specific cards yet)
Flop comes 1 or 2 overcards.
You bet(at least i hope you would, i love when people raise preflop up front then check the flop.... but anyway..)
You will almsot certainly have callers and may even get raised, you also do not know where you stand in the hand, you are not feeling confident with this hand, and you ahve terrible position, all together not a happy situation. If raised you are now in a world of hurt and have just cost yourself extra money by raising preflop. Even without being raised, you can just get called down, and as was stated before the odds of winning this in a showdown with any overcards on boards are not good, plus you add in straights, flushes two pair etc...
In the long run i think you are merely costing yourself several extra bets when you raise with JJ in a blind position.

Now if overcards don't come. And your jacks do hold up, you've earned one extra bet from several people, however do keep in mind with a rags flop less people will call you, as with a flop like 269 has problably helped people less then 29K or 7QK. So when rags do come and you win you are going to win less, then if you ahdn't raise preflop and check raise the flop or turn.


Here is how i play the hand when calling. This seems to either save a lot of money or win more.
If i have jacks, and the flop comes with some scary over cards, check and see what the action is. If somebody up front bets and several people call or there are raises, you can throw the hand away safely knowing you are beat. With a late bet or almost no callers, then a call would be more appropriate. Either way, you did not throw in extra money, and have only paid 1 bet for a flop that misses you, or is not the best for you. The overcards/action has made your flop fold an easy decision usually, now glad that you did not waste money on a raise. Now when rags come though, you are prime for a check raise, AND nobody will usually put you on something like jacks or an overpair and somebody with something like top pair might pay you off the whole way, example a flop like 2810, somebody with A10 with stay the whole way without improvement usually.

In conclusion of my ramblings i feel that you can save money on a missed flop and can earn more on a favorable flop. Also when you flop a set of jacks, you can almost guarantee you ahve the highest set, and also will get paid off much more by two lower pair etc.. then if you had raised preflop and they might not see the the turn to hit a dead 2 pair agianst you since you raised preflop. Through my playing i have found that this strategy usually works fell, savbing me money in some and winning more in others.
Agree? disagree?

Side Note: If somebody has raised, after a few limpers i definately think you should now reraise with JJ in a blind to force limpers to put in 2 more bets to see the flop. This is an attempt to get rid of those mediocre drawing hands that can beat you as well as folding them out will get more dead money in the pot. Or if they stay... its not as bad as you think because they are now paying way to much to play a draw hand with incorrect odds.

[Net Warrior]

FYI,
There was a post here some time back where either MM or DS (I can't recall which) spoke about playing in the big blind in an unraised pot. "If multiway, raise with AA 99, call with QQ JJ."

[modestmouse]

yes, correct. iand i certainly would raise aa, and possibly kk here. its jj i hate. especially with so many callers. obviously 3-4 callers or less with high pair is ideal, and what i pray for when im staring down a AA!

[elysium]

your sandwiched between raisers and re-raisers,your outs aren't clean, your possibly drawing dead,...now, if you'd raised the flop,you might have actually had a chance,but as it was,good fold.

[elysium]

pre-flop