How did I play this hand? (total newbie) [Archive]

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ajv

08-01-2005, 07:05 PM

Hi

I have less than 20 hours of micro limit experience.

Should I usually fold or raise more somewhere in these kind of hands and why?

---------------------------------------
PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, BB folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jh Ac (one pair, tens).
MP2 has 6s Qs (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.25 BB.

POKhER

08-01-2005, 09:15 PM

No reads on mp2?

Preflop: Some may say raise, I think limp is ok.

FLOP: Fold against unknown you dont have odds to call to improve.
Turn: Erm check/fold
river: Check fold.

DONT BE RESULTS ORIENTATED - NOTE MP2 AS A FRIGGIN PSYCHO! NICE FISH.

NOW....

Even if Mp2 is a complete psycho that you know for sure, ITs still a dodgey hand to play as you HAVENT HIT ANYTHING.

Welcome, Post in micro forum and you'll learn alot. Just like me..

LesWormMurphy

08-01-2005, 10:05 PM

I'll be slightly harsh, but don't take offense. I know their are a bunch of posters who only bash your post with no helpful information, but I'll try to help you out and wake you up a bit at the same time.

One of the biggest mistake losing poker players make is going too far with their hands. They should be folding, but they get raised and call, call, call.

The only thing the flop got you was a backdoor flush draw (backdoor draws are draws where you need help on both the turn and river)-- not even a pair. You should have let go of your hand the minute your opponent bet. Not only is Ace-high a bad hand, its a TERRIBLE hand when somebody who limped in suddenly bets on a rather ragged flop.

Unless your almost positive a raise will scare out your opponent if you believe he's bluffing, you should have let go on the turn and especially the river-- but you didn't. You were willing to pay off double bets, i'm guessing because AJo looks like a nice hand... the wake up call is that AJo is not such a solid hand. It's often dominated and this time offsuit.

Even if your only playing for 2/4 cents, developing a habit like calling too often with nothing is a VERY bad habit.

I would advise you to just stop playing right now, and head on to your local Barnes And Noble or any major bookstore and pick up a copy of "Small Stakes Hold 'Em" by Ed Miller. If your making errors this costly, you need to fix it. That book is the key to small stakes domination.

Hope it help,
Take care.

imported_turvalon

08-02-2005, 05:20 AM

I agree with LesWormMurphy. The only thing you may want to consider is this. My father in law wanted to start playing poker so I gave him a copy of Small Stakes Hold'em and he actually got a little worse because he didn't fully understand some of the concepts that were presented. I ended up giving him the Winning Low Limit Hold'em book by Lee Jones and he stopped leaking so much money and then after a bit of time, he ended up reading Small Stakes Hold'em and improved even further.

This doesn't mean that SSHE isn't as good as WLLHE. Far from it. It's just that sometimes as a beginner, you think you know what's going on when you really don't and if you end up losing money you will get discouraged. WLLHE sometimes gives some weak advice, but personally, I realized that I WAS learning when I was able to pick up SSHE and see where WLLHE was giving marginal advice.

Just something to consider.

SheridanCat

08-02-2005, 10:42 AM

I'll be a little less tough on you than Les was, but I generally agree with what he's telling you. Yep, you won, but you won't normally win against a sane opponent.

Preflop I prefer to raise with this hand because I'm intersted in narrowing the number of players in the hand. Against one other opponent you have pretty good preflop equity against a random hand - something like 65%. As the number of players increases you still have higher equity than your fair share, but it starts to get worse and worse - not to mention you're out of position on every round. Here are the rough numbers from Poker Stove:

Code:<hr /><pre>
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 24.3996 % [ 00.23 00.01 ] { AcJh }
Hand 2: 15.1134 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 15.1318 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 15.0181 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 15.1646 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 6: 15.1721 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { random }

---
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 28.8723 % [ 00.28 00.01 ] { AcJh }
Hand 2: 17.7707 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 17.7814 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 17.7760 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 17.7995 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }

---
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 35.3026 % [ 00.34 00.01 ] { AcJh }
Hand 2: 21.5783 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 21.5594 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 21.5596 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { random }

---
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 45.4951 % [ 00.44 00.01 ] { AcJh }
Hand 2: 27.2515 % [ 00.26 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 27.2532 % [ 00.26 00.01 ] { random }

---
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 63.5808 % [ 00.63 00.01 ] { AcJh }
Hand 2: 36.4192 % [ 00.35 00.01 ] { random }
</pre><hr />

Okay, the flop misses you completely but you have two overcards. You try a checkraise, which I think is an okay play when you hold overcards to a flop, but the odds of successfully getting both players to fold is slim, so this is a free card play for the most part. You want to see the river for free trying to hit the backdoor flush or backdoor straight.

Overall I think this pot just isn't big enough to fight for, but your line isn't terrible. Yet.

On the turn things go south in my opinion. Rather than try for a free card by checking, you bet. I'm assuming you thought the king might be a scare card for your opponent. You've missed your backdoor draws, so about the only outs you've got now are three aces - at best. I would have preferred to check this down and folded to any bet. Calling the turn raise is a big mistake, I think.

On the river you're getting 9:1 on your call. I think this is an automatic call given the odds. So, you played this right.

The results are irrelevant. You should have been out of this hand on the turn. I know it seems like your opponent is a total maniac/moron, but look at his play. He took the lead from the flop onward. That whole time he was leveraging fold equity and forcing you to make bad decisions.

Rather than reading Small Stakes Hold'em, I would suggest starting with Getting Started In Hold'em by Ed Miller.

Also, continue playing at this level while you're reading and learning.

Regards,

T

ajv

08-02-2005, 03:06 PM

Thanks for all the commenters. I'm learning a lot from you.

I have read the first 230 pages of Hilger's "Internet texas hold em". I will probably finish the book this week. I have "Theory of Poker" on my book shelf also, but I have not read it yet. I am planning to order a dozen poker books from Amazon this month including Lee Jones' book and SSHE. I'll read Lee's book next although I probably should have read it first.

From the Hilger book I have gotten the idea that one should all the time try to scare off other players by raising. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I am not sure I had a consious read about MP2 is the example hand but maybe an unconscious one /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am using a starting hand Excel table "Small Stakes Hold'em Preflop Hand Recommendations" which I found on this site.

After the first 10 hours I was down about 75BB. Now after 17h (total) of play I'm only 1BB down. Today I won a huge 35BB pot:

PokerStars 0.02/0.04

converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero caps, CO calls, Button calls, UTG calls $0.01 (All-In).

River: (27.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 35.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has 5c 4h (two pair, fours and threes).
Hero has Jh Jd (full house, jacks full of threes).
CO has Qd 3s (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 35.25 BB. 

This hand helped me to recover. I'm hoping it was wise to slow play the flop. There were many callers after me and CO did not believe I could have JJ when he was competing of the pot with me at river.

I am using Poker Tracker. Today I also installed Game Time+.

POKhER

08-02-2005, 10:49 PM

Sound like me,
I started at $.02/.04 games with $20 deposit. Then cashed out $20 once i hit $40 as i wanted to play profits only.

Move up once you hit $30, .05/.10 are much better than .02/.04 but still soft.

I worked way up and i currently site on $220 @ .25/.50 stakes. I Started in decemember, and took a few months off here and there.

I also read ITH when i played .02/.04 and use pot odds etc. And the SSH excel chart found here.

I would recommend playing the game for a while, then buying SSH.

I dont personally recommend other books. I think once you play for a bit, post here... ask q's SSH will be understandable and get you to a better level of gameplay faster.

I personally hate spending money so buying books is a "hate" in one sense so i brought as little as i could.

ITH and SSH have now been paid for from my poker winnings($50) aswell as POKERTRACKER $55.

I actually had over $300 before spending some of it.

Good luck, Post in and READ LOTS MICRO FORUM/BEGINNERS and rememebr to check all the other ones out (Software/psychology/Theory/Probability).

Good luck in your quest to higher stakes,
POKhER

Mr. Curious

08-03-2005, 12:07 AM

Buy Getting Started In Hold'Em from Ed Miller.
Read that and then read Small Stakes Hold'Em.

It will help you a tremendous amount and is a much better progression than jumping straight into SSHE.

Save Theory of Poker until after SSHE because it covers a tremendous amount of advanced material that you will not fully understand if you read it too soon (like I did /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

08-03-2005, 06:15 AM

I think a raise preflop is key. since your UTG, and you raise, even some nano limit tables, people will fold medium hands to such an early raise, and i think that AJ was strong enough to call a possible reraise. I think a bet on the flop would have probably saved you a bet(i dunno about 3 betting on that flop), and check raise the turn. You almost have to call the river, since its like 9-1, and your playing against maniacs.

TaoTe

08-03-2005, 10:18 AM

I would bump it up with AJ UTG, but I'm a loose aggressive maniac with holes to burn in my pockets. Then I'd check/fold the flop unless I had a good read on my opponent because tens scare me, as do straight and flush draws. NH, scooping that one with ace high though.

Ed Miller

08-03-2005, 03:32 PM

Hey,

In an unraised pot, you should generally just fold to a flop bet if all you have is overcards. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but for now just learn the rule.

If the pot was unraised preflop, you flop overcards, and someone bets, fold.

ajv

08-03-2005, 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey,

In an unraised pot, you should generally just fold to a flop bet if all you have is overcards. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but for now just learn the rule.

If the pot was unraised preflop, you flop overcards, and someone bets, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for comment, Ed!
Are the required pot odds 1:6.7, but I was getting less to even call on flop?

BTW, I just ordered your two books plus a dozen other poker books from Amazon. Let's see if I'll get return for my investment /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bjorn

08-04-2005, 05:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks for comment, Ed!
Are the required pot odds 1:6.7, but I was getting less to even call on flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Normaly you'd want significantly better than 1:6.7 to call with two overcards. There are several reasons for this and ED explains them a lot better than i can in SSH but I'll make a laymans attempt to do so.

1) The person betting might already have the overpair you're drawing to beat. (With two pair, a set or an overpair for instance)

2) Your overpair is allways at risk from redraws. For exemple if in the hand you posted the original better had T9 and you catch a jack on the turn that is not a sure win because he can in turn draw you out on the river by catching a T (trips), 9 (two pair) or 8 (straight).

3) He might have a hand that also improves when you catch one of your outs such as AT, JT, A7 etc.

/Bjorn