Beginner's Blues

[Underdog]

This is my first post, so I'd like to start by saying "Hi" to everyone out there. Okay, here's my question(s):

I've read (and continue to read) many of the reputable books on poker theory, and specifically hold'em; I purchased the Wilson TTH software and have learned enough about hold'em to beat the tougher virtual opponents; still, I continually play online and lose. I blame only my poor play for this, but I can't quite grasp why I make subtle changes in approach (probably largely unconcious) that put me on the short end in real money games. Is it just a matter of getting more practice and continuing to study the game? Might I fare better (or even worse) in a B@M? How much money will I lose before I start turning a reliable profit? Do I simply have no talent for the game?

I know that these questions can only be answered in general terms, as none of you have met me or sat down at a table with me, but if there are some folks out there who have gone through similar trials when first starting out, please enlighten me as to what I can expect as I move forward. I am a very intelligent person, I excel in most things which require analytical thinking, and I aspire to become a winning poker player. Please help!

Yours truly,

The Underdog

P.S. I apologize for the long-windedness!

It appears to me that you are in the right track of studying the theories through books, computer simulations, etc. before delving into the real game. Unlike the majority, including me, who realized that there is more to poker than just playing cards after losing a few bills. My question is: how much of what you have read, or thought you have learned, are you actually applying in your games? I'm asking this because I've come across quite a few players who swears by the S&M theories and yet do the exact opposite on the green felt? How long have you been playing? I don't know of any set hours before you realize how good/bad you are but a couple of sessions won't say much. What limits do you play? I'm strictly a B&M player but I know that there are micro limits on the web that you can start with. Also posting your hands in these forums would be a great help to your game.
Just a few thoughts.

[RockLobster]

I know that these questions can only be answered in general terms, as none of you have met me or sat down at a table with me,

Posting hands is the next best thing. A lot of the people that take the time to share their thoughts are incredible players. Your rate of knowledge will increase dramatically in a short amount of time.

I remember this quote, from Bill Parcells (then the coach of the NE Patriots), regarding sophomore quarterback Drew Bledsoe:

(something like): "He's learning... at least now he knows how much he doesn't know."

I feel the same way when reading the replies to my hand posts, but I have that feeling less and less often. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Have fun!

[Homer]

Unfortunately, I can't answer your specific questions, as the answers to most of those questions vary by individual. The only thing I can say is that to get better you must continue to read/study and play. Additionally, I strongly suggest that you start posting hands that caused you problems in the Small Stakes forum. There are many people who post there who are winning players, and will undoubtedly help you to improve your game.

-- Homer

[Tommy Angelo]

"How much money will I lose before I start turning a reliable profit?"

The lure of "reliable profit" for players is what sells how-to books for writers. While all the while, the real money goes to the house.

"Do I simply have no talent for the game?"

Maybe maybe not. Either way, your question reveals honest self-awareness, and with that, I think you have a chance to go properly insane.

Tommy

[mrbaseball]

"Is it just a matter of getting more practice and continuing to study the game? "

Yes. About 5 years ago when I decided I wanted to learn hold 'em I did what you are doing now. I read, reread and studied all the reputable hold'em books. I got TTH and played 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hands and got a feel for the cards and situations that can and will arise. I started this about 4 months before a planned trip to Vegas. It really took all of that 4 months to get ready too. We didn't have the internet options we have now so it was pretty much B&M or nothing. But I won that trip having never before played in a casino because I was prepared.

I continue to read, reread and study all the popular books. I only make to B&M (Vegas) twice a year but play daily on the internet. I still feel I have much to learn and understand. I am 6 weeks from my next trip and will be studying vigorusly between now and then. Every time I evalute my game I look back 6-12 months when I thought I was really on and sharp and think to myself how much better I am now.

Keep studying and keep practicing. For some it comes naturally but for me it is a lot of work and study. I don't mind though it keeps me busy /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Underdog]

Thank you to all who responded; your comments were helpful and encouraging. I have a couple of follow-up questions for anyone who might have some insights . . .

I'm strictly a B&M player but I know that there are micro limits on the web that you can start with.

Are micro limit games worth playing in terms of gaining valuable experience, or are they basically just poker-bingo (i.e. no fold'em hold'em)?

The lure of "reliable profit" for players is what sells how-to books for writers. While all the while, the real money goes to the house.

Is this true? I'm not looking to become a professional, but I am looking to become a long-haul winner. This comment suggests to me that poker is a break-even proposition at best, even for good players (something I've always wondered about). Since everyone is reading the same literature, playing the same strategies, are all but the most elite players doomed to a perpetual state of passing money back and forth (and ultimately losing it to the rake)?

Please let me know what you think.

Underdog

[RockLobster]

Are micro limit games worth playing in terms of gaining valuable experience, or are they basically just poker-bingo (i.e. no fold'em hold'em)?

I have about 2200 hands of online .5/$1 at PartyPoker & Paradise, and it has helped me a ton. I'm also winning pretty consistently, and will be moving up to $1/$2 in the next few weeks.

The games are NOT nofoldem, but you often have to show down to win. 10-handed, you'll often find 5 or so seeing the flop, and it's not unusual for it to end up heads-up by the river.

See this post:

Bob T's reply to one of my posts (http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=217 252&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1)

[mrbaseball]

I really havent had any experience with micro limits. I play 1-2 sometimes but usually stick with 2-4 to 5-10 online but my guess is the games wouldn't play like real poker and would have some of that bingo effect you allude to.

Rake? Like I said I only get to play B&M a couple of times a year. At the low limits (3/6 4/8) the rake is a ballbuster. If they throw a jackpot rake on top of that it's not even worth playing if your goal is to actually win money. Better off playing a little bit higher reducing the % pain of the rake. Online rakes (and other assorted expenses) is much more reasonable. No tipping, no travel expense, more hands and a low rake make online much more profitable on a bb per hour basis. Reliable profit is very obtainable online as well as B&M as long as the B&M limit is high enough to compensate for the rake.

[umaga]

Depends what you consider "reliable" and how much profit you expect. I'm far from an elite player - I win 1 BB/hr with a 9 BB/hr std in 3-6 (1000 hours) and 1.5 BB/hr with a 8 BB/hr std in 2-4 (400 hours). I play online - 2 or 3 tables at once. I've been playing for about eight months (hours played reflect effect of 2 or 3 tables at once). My best month was winning $2,700. It was followed by a month where I lost $700 playing on the same site against mostly the same folks. I know you've read it a number of times, but in the short term there is great variance. I have a real job and view poker as a supplementary income that I get paid for doing something I enjoy.

"Since everyone is reading the same literature, playing the same strategies, are all but the most elite players doomed to a perpetual state of passing money back and forth (and ultimately losing it to the rake)?"

1) Don't be biased by reading this board - not everybody is as focused/studious about the game. The person who introduced me to poker had been playing card club poker for over ten years without reading a single book, and had never played a session where he wasn't drunk/drinking.

2) Just because someone studies, doesn't mean they will be good. Its a question of consistently applying their knowledge. Personality, talent all have an effect.

[ChipWrecked]

Just because someone studies, doesn't mean they will be good. Its a question of consistently applying their knowledge.

I would fully agree with this. Discipline is a major factor. Everybody knows how to lose weight (eat less, exercise more, no?), but how many overweight people do you see? How many ads for this week's 'revolutionary weight-loss pill'?

There are old threads on the RGP (rec.gambling.poker) newsgroup that talk about the difference between the LA and Las Vegas 'styles' of play; as I recall the LA players believe the Vegas players are S/M devotees and thus beatable (they've all read the same books). I'm not qualified to give an opinion on that... but I've decided Sacramento low limit holdem players are a sight tougher than Bay Area players at equivalent limits. I believe it's because of the scarcity of tables in the Sac area for the number of players. Good luck, cya around...

[Louie Landale]

Emotional control, perception, and discipline are far more valuable than analytical abilities.

But on to your post... Being able to beat the TTH tough line up is nothing to brag about. They do not play well. Good for you for stoping playing TTH as soon as you were confident you could beat them. Its entirely possible that you beat them using inferior strategy, and that strategy is now hurting you.

You are now playing against people who can think. That requires a whole new approach to Holdem that TTH just cannot give you. Dare I suggest, therefore, that you play in the "free" or micro-limit on-line games until you can beat them.

Here is a test: by the time the hands are shown down, you should have a REAL good idea what everbody in the showdown has, very close, most of the time. If the showdown regularly surprises you, then you are not ready to play for any significant money at all. Watch the hands and try to figure it out.

- Louie