capping flop with a flush draw

[hobbsmann]

live 10/20 that was filled with pretty solid players for the most part. MP1 is a solid TAG that occasionally will exhibit weak-tight tendencies and slow down postflop.

MP1 open raises, I call in the CO with KQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, BB calls.

(6.5 SB) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
MP1 bets, hero raises, MP1 3-bets, hero 4-bets?

yes?

[pauliewalnuts]

No, raising the first time is fine. But when he 3bets he is saying he has a big pair, which means you may just be drawing to flush outs. Capping steets HU with draws isnt something you should be doing.

[W. Deranged]

Hobbs,

1. You play bad.

What's going on with the action? Are there two MP players here or not? (MP1 and MP2)

If this is heads up, I'd say call the flop three-bet. You're not going to get a free card often enough to merit the times villain will simply lead back on the turn after the cap, and you probably don't have an equity edge heads-up.

Three-handed I think this is a very easy cap. You're winning way more than your fair share here.

[hobbsmann]

ok maybe the turn is more interesting...

MP1 calls flop 4-bet

Turn: (4BB) K /images/graemlins/heart.gif
MP1 bets, Hero....

[HolyBejeesus]

I would probably fold this preflop, becuase KQ is an easily dominated hand.

Equity-wise, there is no reason to cap this, because you are likely up against a big pair and have no edge. However, if you are confident that he would check to you on the turn after you cap, you could cap and take a free card.

[pauliewalnuts]

I think it is 3way on the flop. He makes no mention of MP2 calling preflop, so I thought MP2 on the flop is supposed to be MP1. Also it appears that BB folded somewhere, making it then HU.

[W. Deranged]

Calls, with the intent of raising the river. The thing is that three-bets are probably going to go in on the turn and the river regardless of whether you raise now or on the river. The only way more goes in is if you are behind. Raising the turn and getting three-bet when you are still drawing sucks. You also are unlikely to get three-bet on the river by anything you are beating (unless you make your flush), so river play is not that tough.

[hobbsmann]

Yeah I edited the original post, MP2->MP1 this pot was HU after I raised the flop initially.

[shant]

3-bet preflop. Call flop 3-bet. Call turn. Raise river.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn and getting three-bet when you are still drawing really, really, really, really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[W. Deranged]

Duly noted.

[hobbsmann]

His three bet to me meant he had a big pair, but I thought he was semi-weak tight and would slow down to call down mode if I put in a cap and I would be able to buy myself a free card a fair portion of the time. Also, there was an outside chance one or two of my overcards outs were good making the percent time I need to have the opportunity to take a free card less to make this cap profitable.

[SmileyEH]

By calling preflop your hand is so well defined as a flush draw that there is no point trying for a free card by capping.

-SmileyEH

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
By calling preflop your hand is so well defined as a flush draw that there is no point trying for a free card by capping.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

edited to elaborate: So, before the flop is even dealt Hero's cold calling hands are resticted to suited cards? This makes no sense at all.

[hobbsmann]

I agree, getting 3-bet on the turn would have really sucked and I was pretty sure I one pair was no good.

..Hero calls turn bet

River (9BB) A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
MP1 stares at hero and says 'I know you have diamonds, I check', Hero bets, MP1 calls

MP1 shows AA for rivered top set
Hero rakes pot, but feels he mightly f'ed up the hand.

[W. Deranged]

I think you are assuming way too much about the skill/intelligence/sanity/sobriety of villain's opponents.

At any small stakes games without a specific read the villain is g00t I think it's pretty unnecessary to go level 3 in my plays all that often.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
By calling preflop your hand is so well defined as a flush draw that there is no point trying for a free card by capping.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain. I really don't think this is the case, but I'm curious as to your opinion.

[Hamlet]

I'm assuming the BB folded to your raise on the flop and its headsup.

I don't think it matters much whether you cap or just call the 3-bet. If he has a pair smaller than QQ, you're a tiny favorite. If has QQ, you're a small dog. If he has KK or AA, you're a significant but not horrible dog.

With position, I go ahead and cap (If you're that afraid of AA or KK, you should have folded pre-flop)

On the turn, I just call. If you're ahead, a raise just gives your opponent a way out of the hand. If you really want to raise, raise the river where the hands that beat you may not have the stones to re-raise, and a hand you beat is less likely to lay down.

[shant]

I don't like his river play.

[W. Deranged]

Hobbs,

I think it is important to recognize that villain's checking the river here with rivered top set is likely not the result of a really good read but more a result of the fact that decent small stakes players are really tight weak and will fear any flush draw that hits anywhere ever.

I think the transparency of your hand just has to be accepted here. It is certainly not a big enough issue to merit raising the turn or anything like that.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like his river play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't either especially since it cost me bets. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

But seriously, there is no way I don't bet/call the river if I was in his position.

[pauliewalnuts]

Yeah, not betting that river is weak.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like his river play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't either especially since it cost me bets. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

But seriously, there is no way I don't bet/call the river if I was in his position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hobbs plays bad but not as bad as villain. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[baronzeus]

Assuming he open raises 88+ preflop in MP1:

He 3bets you with 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA on the flop.

6 comboes each of 88, 99, TT, JJ = 24 comboes you are ahead of. 3 comboes of QQ and KK, 6 of AA = 12 comboes you are slightly behind. I'd cap this flop.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably fold this preflop, becuase KQ is an easily dominated hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be the only question of the preflop play does anybody else fold this preflop? I thought it was a choice between cold calling and 3-betting, but I'm a LAG.

[brettbrettr]

Yes, this is an easy, easy pre-flop fold.

[Emperor]

Fold preflop vs a TAG, 3bet this vs fish and LAG's.

I like capping the flop for the reason BVZ mentioned

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop vs a TAG, 3bet this vs fish and LAG's.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would also fold preflop vs a TAG, 3bet LAGs in most circumstances (this can be a fold), but even the fish?? that seems insane

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By calling preflop your hand is so well defined as a flush draw that there is no point trying for a free card by capping.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain. I really don't think this is the case, but I'm curious as to your opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of hero's range of cold calling hands. No made hand he could have would warrant a flop cap. Only a flush draw would do so. 3betting preflop is better, a flop raise is fine, but once you are 3bet a cap is pure spewage.

-SmileyEH

[Jake (The Snake)]

I dunno, it sounds wrong... but is it?

What hands would a TAG possibly cold call against another TAG in these positions? AQs, KQs, AJs, maybe KJs... I can't think of any non-suited hands or pairs can you?

Of course this assumes MP1 is a thinking TAG who can figure out hand ranges.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, it sounds wrong... but is it?

What hands would a TAG possibly cold call against another TAG in these positions? AQs, KQs, AJs, maybe KJs... I can't think of any non-suited hands or pairs can you?

Of course this assumes MP1 is a thinking TAG who can figure out hand ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these are good points and the fact that I had a flush draw was probably telegraphed to MP1 if he was thinking critically, which I think he was. So lets say I cold call this hand, but realize once I do that I know that MP1 knows I have suited cards. What is the best line given my knowledge of MP1 views on my holdings? Is it still right in this situation to put in the first raise on the flop?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it still right in this situation to put in the first raise on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, because he openraised. He doesn't have to have a made hand already. There are times where your raise will get you the free turn.

[brettbrettr]

An overpair seems unlikely but a set doesn't. I think I see more cold-calls with pairs than I do suited cards.