just shove here or call?

[SoBeDude]

online MTT, we're in the second hour, first hour was a rebuy.

I have 7K, EP has close to the same amount.

BB is 200, no antes yet.

I have KK in the BB. EP limps, LP limps, SB completes.

I raise to 700 and accidently raise it 700 and make it 900 to go. now the EP player reraises, making it 1600 to go (he hit the raise button).

folded around to me.

Whats my play, and why? should I shove here? should I just call? make another reraise?

I'd appreciate some detailed thinking on the though processes here.

-Scott

[People_Mover]

I'm reraising to 3000 -3500 and if the chips aren't in preflop, I'm pushing any non ace flop.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reraising to 3000 -3500 and if the chips aren't in preflop, I'm pushing any non ace flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I specifically asked for the "WHYs' of any play. a play in isolation, without the analysis and thought processes involved, is of little value in analysis.

-Scott

[handsome]

Well, it kinda looks like he has AA (limp-minraising), but I don't think you can fold here without a VERY strong read. Another minraise (or any non-push raise) from you will lead to him either pushing or smooth-calling, but you pushing gets all your money in the pot and most likely all of his too, since he's already put a 1/4 of his stack in.. so I p00sh and hope he has some donk hand like KQs.

[durron597]

I've seen people make the limp reraise with all sorts of hands. Small pairs and suited connectors because they know people will fold. In fact one guy in my home game never does anything BUT limp reraise or limp call.

So folding preflop is not an option.

The problem with not reraising here is that you will be out of position for the rest of the hand, and once the pot is up to 1600 chips you are no longer deep enough to be able to fold vs. a possible set. So I think you have to 3bet here. I would make it 4000 and if he just calls I am not folding any flop including an A high one.

[SoBeDude]

If I raise to 4K, thats more than 1/2 my remaining stack. I'm pretty sure if I'm putting 1/2 or more of my stack in I can't fold anyway so I should just shove.

-Scott

[mts]

neat hand.

I think the answer is you want to push any non queen flop (assuming you call) but i'm not 100%. Let me think about it more before typing my thought process

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
neat hand.

I think the answer is you want to push any non queen flop (assuming you call) but i'm not 100%. Let me think about it more before typing my thought process

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Non queen flop???

[Lloyd]

Given this is an online rebuy MTT, villain could be making this play with too large of a range to even consider folding. I think the salient question is how do we get his chips in with a worse pair (like JJ or QQ). If he has AA hopefully we'll get lucky. If we just call and the flop has overcards to his pair (which will happen about 60% of the time if he has JJ and about 40% of the time if he has QQ) he can easily get away from the hand. So we have to make some kind of a raise. Making it 4000 or so to go looks very strong. And I don't want to look that strong here. I think JJ folds to that raise and very likely QQ. I like pushing here because it looks like AK and people are much more likely to call with a worse pair.

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]

I raise to 700 and accidently raise it 700 and make it 900 to go


[/ QUOTE ]

why is that an accident? were you planning on just checking here or raising more?

Anyway, I like to let the aggressor continue to be aggressive here. I call his raise and check/raise all-in any flop. Could he limp/re-raise AA? sure, but i'm thinking you're more likely to see QQ-77 here or AK-AJ. Yes, I'm worried about an Ace hitting on the flop, but I think you're ahead most of the time here

[zambonidrivr]

in short, i am doing everything i can to get all my chips in pre-flop. if that means jacking around with a min raise, fine, but my goal is to get my chips in with the best of it. let me guess, villian flips over 55 and rivers a straight.

considering the blinds with respect to stacks, you have to push edges and take risks. aces-kings, i will take those chances without hesitation.

gl

[Potowame]

He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

So raise to 4000, to open his calling range up more to 88-jj AQs AJs and push any flop.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a rebuy. If you shove now his call range is AA-55 and most aces.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

So raise to 4000, to open his calling range up more to 88-jj AQs AJs and push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. Back it up with numbers. If the hero pushes, what hand range will the villain put him on, what odds will the villain be getting if he called (considering there is already quite a bit of dead money), and what hands are worthy of a call based on those odds.

Do you not think that making what amounts to a pot committed but minimal raise doesn't scream big pair? A medium pair like 88 doesn't come close to having the right odds to call that type of raise.

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things


[/ QUOTE ]

rebuy period is over... they're into the second hour. People are playing a little smarter now /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a rebuy. If you shove now his call range is AA-55 and most aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you think its a rebuy?

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things


[/ QUOTE ]

rebuy period is over... they're into the second hour. People are playing a little smarter now /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand. But many rebuy players tend to continue to do dumb things even after the rebuy period is over. Particularly during the first hour after the rebuys when the aggressiveness of the first hour lingers in their mind. It's tough for some people to change gears and start playing "freezeout" poker.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Given this is an online rebuy MTT, villain could be making this play with too large of a range to even consider folding. I think the salient question is how do we get his chips in with a worse pair (like JJ or QQ). If he has AA hopefully we'll get lucky. If we just call and the flop has overcards to his pair (which will happen about 60% of the time if he has JJ and about 40% of the time if he has QQ) he can easily get away from the hand. So we have to make some kind of a raise. Making it 4000 or so to go looks very strong. And I don't want to look that strong here. I think JJ folds to that raise and very likely QQ. I like pushing here because it looks like AK and people are much more likely to call with a worse pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

perfect.

If I were in position, this hand might play a little different, but OOP, I don't want to mess around so I don't particularly mind getting Ax to fold. If he has something like JJ/QQ, he'll call the push anyway, so we don't want to let him off the hook if the flop comes with overs, so let's just push now. I agree that 4k looks too scary.

You: Push
Him: he must not want to see a flop, he probably has AK or something like 99 or TT. I call
You: Yesssss
Him: Shiiiiit

Results: AJQ flop and WGHN.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

So raise to 4000, to open his calling range up more to 88-jj AQs AJs and push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

if that were true, then I would be coming over the top of limp reraises like a motherfucker.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

So raise to 4000, to open his calling range up more to 88-jj AQs AJs and push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. Back it up with numbers. If the hero pushes, what hand range will the villain put him on, what odds will the villain be getting if he called (considering there is already quite a bit of dead money), and what hands are worthy of a call based on those odds.

Do you not think that making what amounts to a pot committed but minimal raise doesn't scream big pair? A medium pair like 88 doesn't come close to having the right odds to call that type of raise.

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear lord people!!

this is now the second person to respond who thinks this is during a rebuy!

online MTT, we're in the second hour, first hour was a rebuy.

That is what I typed in the initial post.

Read...slowly.

Gheeze.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Given this is an online rebuy MTT, villain could be making this play with too large of a range to even consider folding. I think the salient question is how do we get his chips in with a worse pair (like JJ or QQ). If he has AA hopefully we'll get lucky. If we just call and the flop has overcards to his pair (which will happen about 60% of the time if he has JJ and about 40% of the time if he has QQ) he can easily get away from the hand. So we have to make some kind of a raise. Making it 4000 or so to go looks very strong. And I don't want to look that strong here. I think JJ folds to that raise and very likely QQ. I like pushing here because it looks like AK and people are much more likely to call with a worse pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis. But what do you suggest? calling or pushing?

-Scott

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

So raise to 4000, to open his calling range up more to 88-jj AQs AJs and push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. Back it up with numbers. If the hero pushes, what hand range will the villain put him on, what odds will the villain be getting if he called (considering there is already quite a bit of dead money), and what hands are worthy of a call based on those odds.

Do you not think that making what amounts to a pot committed but minimal raise doesn't scream big pair? A medium pair like 88 doesn't come close to having the right odds to call that type of raise.

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear lord people!!

this is now the second person to respond who thinks this is during a rebuy!

online MTT, we're in the second hour, first hour was a rebuy.

That is what I typed in the initial post.

Read...slowly.

Gheeze.

[/ QUOTE ]
Gheeze. Where did I say it was during the rebuy period? I said it was a rebuy MTT but that's no where close to the same thing. Read slowly! And see my post above.

[ZBTHorton]

I agree almost exactly with what Sossman said.

This has to be a push OOP.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like pushing here because it looks like AK and people are much more likely to call with a worse pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis. But what do you suggest? calling or pushing?

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

So raise to 4000, to open his calling range up more to 88-jj AQs AJs and push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. Back it up with numbers. If the hero pushes, what hand range will the villain put him on, what odds will the villain be getting if he called (considering there is already quite a bit of dead money), and what hands are worthy of a call based on those odds.

Do you not think that making what amounts to a pot committed but minimal raise doesn't scream big pair? A medium pair like 88 doesn't come close to having the right odds to call that type of raise.

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear lord people!!

this is now the second person to respond who thinks this is during a rebuy!

online MTT, we're in the second hour, first hour was a rebuy.

That is what I typed in the initial post.

Read...slowly.

Gheeze.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you should read carefully, too:


Lloyd said:

"I understand. But many rebuy players tend to continue to do dumb things even after the rebuy period is over. Particularly during the first hour after the rebuys when the aggressiveness of the first hour lingers in their mind. It's tough for some people to change gears and start playing "freezeout" poker."

[SoBeDude]

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

This is what u typed.

it is NOT a rebuy. It WAS a rebuy.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is calling a Shove with AKs AA KK QQ, folding most everything else if he is not a retard.

So raise to 4000, to open his calling range up more to 88-jj AQs AJs and push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. Back it up with numbers. If the hero pushes, what hand range will the villain put him on, what odds will the villain be getting if he called (considering there is already quite a bit of dead money), and what hands are worthy of a call based on those odds.

Do you not think that making what amounts to a pot committed but minimal raise doesn't scream big pair? A medium pair like 88 doesn't come close to having the right odds to call that type of raise.

And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear lord people!!

this is now the second person to respond who thinks this is during a rebuy!

online MTT, we're in the second hour, first hour was a rebuy.

That is what I typed in the initial post.

Read...slowly.

Gheeze.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you should read carefully, too:


Lloyd said:

"I understand. But many rebuy players tend to continue to do dumb things even after the rebuy period is over. Particularly during the first hour after the rebuys when the aggressiveness of the first hour lingers in their mind. It's tough for some people to change gears and start playing "freezeout" poker."

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you should too. I was referring to his INITIAL post, not his justification post.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

This is what u typed.

it is NOT a rebuy. It WAS a rebuy.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're killin' me.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like pushing here because it looks like AK and people are much more likely to call with a worse pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis. But what do you suggest? calling or pushing?

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! now who needs to read carefully!

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And don't forget. It's a rebuy and people tend to do dumb things.

This is what u typed.

it is NOT a rebuy. It WAS a rebuy.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're killin' me.

[/ QUOTE ]
And more specifically, it IS a rebuy tournament. It WAS during the rebuy period. We're both guilty of not clarifying exactly what was meant but I understood all along that the rebuy period was over. But it's still a rebuy tourney.

[SoBeDude]

I pushed and he folded /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I pushed and he folded /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

so what happened? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pushed and he folded /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

so what happened? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I bet the hero just called and folded to an A high flop.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pushed and he folded /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

so what happened? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I timed out and it folded me /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Potowame]

Okay, I ll try my best. I am sure you are alot better at the Math than me Lloyd, so go easy on me.

600 + 900 + 1400 = 2900 pot

Hero raises 2400 + 2900 pot = 5300 /2400 = 2.21/1

Hero raises 5400 + 2900 pot = 8300/5400 = 1.54/1


Looks odds wise Villain is not really getting much better either way. So I guess not announcing your hand while giving the same odds as a push would not accomplish much.

As for villian calling range on a push , I would guess this depends on villains read of what hands you would do this with.

If Villain is think this looks like AK that wants to see all five cards or AQs possible. Than he would be correct to call with any pair, or AK.



I guess its alot easier to not make mistakes with KK if you just get it all-in preflop also.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I ll try my best. I am sure you are alot better at the Math than me Lloyd, so go easy on me.

600 + 900 + 1400 = 2900 pot

Hero raises 2400 + 2900 pot = 5300 /2400 = 2.21/1

Hero raises 5400 + 2900 pot = 8300/3800 = 2.18/1


Looks odds wise Villain is not really getting much better either way. So I guess not announcing your hand while giving the same odds as a push would not accomplish much.

As for villian calling range on a push , I would guess this depends on villains read of what hands you would do this with.

If Villain is think this looks like AK that wants to see all five cards or AQs possible. Than he would be correct to call with any pair, or AK.



I guess its alot easier to not make mistakes with KK if you just get it all-in preflop also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the Math.

But tell me, when someone jams after raising and getting reraised like I did, don't you put him on AK as one of the hands he'd make that play with?

but if a decent (ahem) player raises just over half his stack, don't you put him on a better hand, like AA-KK?

I guess what I'm saying is that the re-reraise 1/2 my chips screams real strength there. But the push may be anything from a pair of 6's up, and incluing hands like AQs.

-Scott

[Potowame]

Yes if it was a decent player doing this to me I would think AA or KK.

A push , I would think most pairs and AK AQ.

I see your point , I did have to edit my math so re check.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If I raise to 4K, thats more than 1/2 my remaining stack. I'm pretty sure if I'm putting 1/2 or more of my stack in I can't fold anyway so I should just shove.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true! I hate this frigging forum when they say that garbage.

If your opponent does not realize you are committed, they might play back with weaker hands.

You have the second nuts. You want action from weaker hands. You do not want them to fold. The statement you gave only applies when stealing blinds etc. when you don't mind them folding weaker hands. When you have KK that is not true.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you think its a rebuy?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, for the record, even if the rebuy period is over it was still a rebuy.

Also for the record, just because people tighten up after the first hour doesn't mean they don't still suck enough to limp/reraise, then call with 55 (in fact, I saw it with 22 the other day, but figured I'd be safe and post 55)

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I ll try my best. I am sure you are alot better at the Math than me Lloyd, so go easy on me.

600 + 900 + 1400 = 2900 pot

Hero raises 2400 + 2900 pot = 5300 /2400 = 2.21/1

Hero raises 5400 + 2900 pot = 8300/5400 = 1.54/1


Looks odds wise Villain is not really getting much better either way. So I guess not announcing your hand while giving the same odds as a push would not accomplish much.

As for villian calling range on a push , I would guess this depends on villains read of what hands you would do this with.

If Villain is think this looks like AK that wants to see all five cards or AQs possible. Than he would be correct to call with any pair, or AK.



I guess its alot easier to not make mistakes with KK if you just get it all-in preflop also.

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot is 2,900 when it gets back to the hero. If he raises to 4,000, he puts in another 3,100 making the pot 6,000. It's 2,400 more for the villain to call so his odds are 2.5 to 1.

If the hero pushes when it gets back to him, he's putting in another 6,100 making the pot 9,000. It's 5,400 more for the villain to call so his odds are 1.7 to 1.

It would appear that it's better to just make a normal raise because you're giving the villain better odds. But that's where what hand range he'll put us on becomes key.

If we make a normal raise that's a pretty strong move. More often then not I would say that's AA-QQ. Yes, there's some possibility of a bluff or other hands but the point is the villain is more often then not up against a bigger pair and doesn't have odds to call even if he's getting 2.5 to 1. JJ is a 4 to 1 dog against that range.

If on the other hand because of our push the hero's range now includes AA-99, AK things change a bit. JJ is 50/50 against that range. QQ is actually a slight favorite.

There are a lot of assumptions here but I think it's reasonable to assume that if the villain will call a normal raise he'll go ahead and call a push.

[Potowame]

[ QUOTE ]

The pot is 2,900 when it gets back to the hero. If he raises to 4,000, he puts in another 3,100 making the pot 6,000. It's 2,400 more for the villain to call so his odds are 2.5 to 1.

If the hero pushes when it gets back to him, he's putting in another 6,100 making the pot 9,000. It's 5,400 more for the villain to call so his odds are 1.7 to 1.

It would appear that it's better to just make a normal raise because you're giving the villain better odds. But that's where what hand range he'll put us on becomes key.

If we make a normal raise that's a pretty strong move. More often then not I would say that's AA-QQ. Yes, there's some possibility of a bluff or other hands but the point is the villain is more often then not up against a bigger pair and doesn't have odds to call even if he's getting 2.5 to 1. JJ is a 4 to 1 dog against that range.

If on the other hand because of our push the hero's range now includes AA-99, AK things change a bit. JJ is 50/50 against that range. QQ is actually a slight favorite.

There are a lot of assumptions here but I think it's reasonable to assume that if the villain will call a normal raise he'll go ahead and call a push.




[/ QUOTE ]


Opps messed the math up alittle, but I am always in the ball park at the table.

Thats Basiacally what I meaning by it wasn't much of a differance either way, you are giving him 2.5/1 in one case but telling him you have a big hand, or 1.7/1 in another telling him that you have a wider range.
Which at the Table (in the battle) 1.7 is going to look close to 2/1 and not alot of players are folding a 2/1 with a pair 88 or better or AK.

I dont know what I was thinking in the my first post I always get pissed when I get call in these situations with 22-77 and dont improve with AK.