Am I a superdonk? ($50+5 hand)

[gildwulf]

400/800 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 14451113) - Mon Aug 01 14:32:12 EDT 2005
Table Table 10937 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 1: Arnie1222 (470)
Seat 6: Hero (4390)
Seat 7: theforce666 (5140)
Hero posts small blind (200)
theforce666 posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jd, Td ]
Arnie1222 raises (470) to 470
Arnie1222 is all-In.
Hero raises (4190) to 4390
Hero is all-In.
theforce666 calls (3990)

[codewarrior]

Yes. While I know you were trying to shut out theforce and get H/U, that's quite the overbet. Did he flip over Aces or Kings (or fours)?

[gildwulf]

AQo...

would you say that if he folded?

[codewarrior]

No, because he wouldn't have folded Aces or Kings. Which is why I don't like the huge overbet - you're only getting called by hands that beat you.

[rydazzle]

Isnt that always the risk of isolation?

[gildwulf]

If every time I made a decision in poker I worried about the person next to act having Aces or Kings, I would be a very shitty poker player.

[rydazzle]

word

[KingDan]

I think at this time, many fish are ready to spite call with any hand that looks pretty.

[dumb ox]

Since you're more concerned with keeping the short stack from stealing your blind and knocking him out of the tournament, than with getting his 400 chips, an isolation raise doesn't seem right. Call, and hope the other big stack will work with you.

[freemoney]

the blinds are 12% of the chips in play and you get aces or kings 1 in every 100 hands, you are gonna raise to what 2000 then fold getting great odds? the play is fine if you have any read on BB that hes not crazy.

[skierdude1000]

I think it's kind of pointless... if you want to play JTd, just call and hope the other guy checks it through with you

[axeshigh]

This is horrible. You have JT, it's crap. It beats half the hands the raiser has, less if he's not pushing any two. If you want to take him out just call and let the other guy call too. Even if the other guy has 1000 chips instead of 5000 this is awful.

[gildwulf]

I'm sorry, but JTs is not crap 3-handed with high blinds when the short stack is pushing any two...please try again...

[Isura]

I'd seriously just call here. Pot odds are too good, and BB will need a pretty good hand to push over the top (unless he pulls an isolation play himself). How good is BB? Call and bet strong when you flop a pair.

[HighestCard]

I really like the play, but I take it in any position but this one. I would rather let big stack call for his pot odds and give a chance to knock shorty out. my prefrence though.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
if you want to play JTd,

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no "If you want to play JTs". If you fold this ITM with 200/400 blinds, you suck at SNGs. The only options I see are calling and raising, and the question of raising is how much. The only two options I considered here were raising and calling. Let me reiterate that one more time. If you fold JTs here, you suck at SNGs.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but JTs is not crap 3-handed with high blinds when the short stack is pushing any two...please try again...

[/ QUOTE ]

The short stack shouldn't be pushing any two, it's pretty easy to figure out that much. JTs is far from an overwhelming favorite against any 2 anyway. Please keep making this play.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but JTs is not crap 3-handed with high blinds when the short stack is pushing any two...please try again...

[/ QUOTE ]

The short stack shouldn't be pushing any two, it's pretty easy to figure out that much. JTs is far from an overwhelming favorite against any 2 anyway. Please keep making this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. There's really nothing else to say.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but JTs is not crap 3-handed with high blinds when the short stack is pushing any two...please try again...

[/ QUOTE ]

The short stack shouldn't be pushing any two, it's pretty easy to figure out that much. JTs is far from an overwhelming favorite against any 2 anyway. Please keep making this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. There's really nothing else to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hell did you make this post in the first place if you think your play was so good? I really wish someone would post how good JTs does against any two.

[curtains]

as big a fan as I am of making such isolation plays, I don't believe this is the best time and place to be doing this.

This is mainly because the equity you gain when the BB folds isnt that large due to still having to beat the button, who SHOULD have a hand thats better than yours, meanwhile you are risking 5k in chips to do so. If you had like 6k-8k and or the blinds are higher I like this play a lot more, because the risk/reward ratio is better for you.

[HonestIago15]

I don't think this play is bad, and by that I mean I think it's probably +EV, but I see no reason why you couldn't just raise less than all-in and possible see a flop. You can take chips off him without putting your whole stack at risk.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but JTs is not crap 3-handed with high blinds when the short stack is pushing any two...please try again...

[/ QUOTE ]

The short stack shouldn't be pushing any two, it's pretty easy to figure out that much. JTs is far from an overwhelming favorite against any 2 anyway. Please keep making this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. There's really nothing else to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hell did you make this post in the first place if you think your play was so good? I really wish someone would post how good JTs does against any two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you actually read my response? I said the decision was between calling and raising. I have the raiser covered 10X plus with 200 already in the pot. It is three-handed ITM. I am getting almost 5-1 pot odds to call for less than 10% of my stack.

How could you possibly advise anyone to fold this and be a winning poker player?

A lot of people advocated calling which I think is probably a better play. Next time I will probably just call here 80% of time and raise 20% of time. Thanks to most of the posters on this thread for insightful comments.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this play is bad, and by that I mean I think it's probably +EV, but I see no reason why you couldn't just raise less than all-in and possible see a flop. You can take chips off him without putting your whole stack at risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem with raising less than all-in is that the BB is getting MONSTER odds to call almost anything here. Even if I raise it 3X the BB on top of the blinds (1200), he is getting 2-1 to call. And this raise would commit 25% of my stack, which would suck donkeyballs. The only way to give him incorrect pot odds is to push.

This is why I think calling is a better play here...because it is almost impossible to get this guy to lay down a hand here without committing too much of my stack.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]
How could you possibly advise anyone to fold this and be a winning poker player?
Thanks to most of the posters on this thread for insightful comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I daresay that my comments would have been just as insightful to you had you actually read them. NOWHERE AT ALL do I say you should have folded. It is just painfully obvious doing anything other than call is wrong. I also noticed curtains agrees you are most likely behind the original raiser here. Glad to see he isn't getting flamed into oblivion too.

[MagnoliasFM]

gildwulf i like calling and cooperating here to eliminate shorty. the value of the isolation play is directly proportional to the chance your hand is good against the all-in player's. JTs is a good enough hand and you're getting great odds to call and check down, but there is no need to isolate here as you're pretty much even money against the all-in player. In order for an isolation play to be better than cooperating, you would have to beat the all-in player but have forced BB into folding a hand that would've beat you. change the Jd into an A and i like the play.

[imported_etojim]

2,097,572,400 games 5.638 secs 372,041,929 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.5279 % 56.15% 01.37% { JdTd }
Hand 2: 42.4721 % 41.10% 01.37% { random }

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How could you possibly advise anyone to fold this and be a winning poker player?
Thanks to most of the posters on this thread for insightful comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I daresay that my comments would have been just as insightful to you had you actually read them. NOWHERE AT ALL do I say you should have folded. It is just painfully obvious doing anything other than call is wrong. I also noticed curtains agrees you are most likely behind the original raiser here. Glad to see he isn't getting flamed into oblivion too.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting flamed b/c I already said a call was probably better, and your reasoning behind a call was totally wrong and the way you said it was incredibly rude.

[pooh74]

Im not crazy about this play for reasons other than the isolation play.

Why are you isolating 3 way with no dead money in pot with a hand like JTs??? You're problem lies there, not reraising all-in, which I dont mind if the cards warrant it.

FWIW, I think BB's call is iffy too.

[rydazzle]

gild,

I agree, I like the call now too...BB's got great odds like you said w/ call or raise. Good post...my JT/QJ late-game has been blowing it lately, Ill play them like this and see how it goes...

[gildwulf]

Yea, I think a raise here (of any size) blows.

[Afterh0urs]

Probably better? No, definitely better. Why are you trying to isolate for 470 chips when it's fairly safe to assume that you're already behind? You should want the third player to call and eliminate the shortstack.

You post this illogical play and then take an arrogant tone with people telling you that it's a bad play.

I call 100% of the time.

[AliasMrJones]

Aside from what has already been posted, I definitely think you ARE NOT up against any 2 cards. Mr. small has absolutely no FE and therefore should not go all-in with any 2. If his hand is worse than average he should fold and wait for the next hand which has a 50/50 chance of being better than average.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably better? No, definitely better. Why are you trying to isolate for 470 chips when it's fairly safe to assume that you're already behind? You should want the third player to call and eliminate the shortstack.

You post this illogical play and then take an arrogant tone with people telling you that it's a bad play.

I call 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you actually read any of my responses?

In every single response I say calling is a better play.

What I was responding too was the weak-tighty advice of folding here which one person said and others hinted of (that JTs is "crap", that it's awful, and that it can't beat any two random cards which is wrong). I don't understand how you can possibly say I'm arrogant when I post a hand for [constructive] criticism as a learning exercise when I admit clearly that I did not make the best play and myself and other posters explained why a raise does not work here. I also don't see how you call this illogical, as I explained logically the reasons for raising and the amount it was raised, and then explained the arguments for calling and concluded that calling was the best of the two options.

I have absolutely no problem with people telling me this play is incorrect because there is definitely a better play here. But posts like Citanul's and others, which explain why using important concepts that are vital to understanding SNGs, are much different than saying "JTs is crap and it can't be beaten by any two cards".

There is a difference between using constructive criticism to add to our understanding of SNGs and what axe was posting, which was completely incorrect and faulty logic and 3rd-grade insults.

[Uppercut]

[ QUOTE ]
theforce666 calls (3990)

[/ QUOTE ]

Right here is when I go "fuuuuuuuuck"! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Afterh0urs]

Ok, maybe I just misunderstood your tone.

What I read was a bunch of responses where people responded to you, and then you said that if they play like that, they must not be making money in SNGs. I just found that inappropriate that you post a play for criticism and then still find yourself in a position to criticize other opinions.

If you say that's not the case, I believe you. I'm not here to argue.

Back to keeping the thread on topic, there are a few reasons why I feel calling is the only acceptable play.

1) The amount of chips in the pot isn't really sufficient to warrant an isolation play. If I were playing the tournament, in this situation, I would be far more concerned with having the shortstack eliminated than I would be picking up the chips. Because of this, I'm just calling with all but the strongest of hands (AQ+, TT+), and hoping to see a threeway flop which eliminates the short stack.

In fact, as for hands I'm just calling with, JTs is among the most favorable, because it's the type of hand that can easily smash a flop which also hits the other big stack's holdings, assuming he's calling with high cards.

2) While JTs is strong 3-handed, I think it'll be the exception rather than the rule where you are ahead of the shortstack's pushing hand, so I'd welcome the help in eliminating him while his stack is short enough that calling with any 2 is acceptable. If you force out the third player and end up doubling the shortie up, you're giving him back more of his fold equity than I would like to surrender.

So, that being said, I feel calling is the only acceptable play with JTs given this situation.