Folding AK preflop

[MRBAA]

$1/2 live game. Started with a 30bb stack, doubled up and have 60bb ($120) for this hand. Solid player who's stuck and playing uber tight open raises to $15 in ep. Loose passive but reasonable standards guy cold calls in mp. I'm next in mp, holding AK and I fold.

[TheWorstPlayer]

How many handed is it? My live game is almost always short.

[MRBAA]

Full table, three still to act behind me. Everyone has me covered.

[beekeeper]

Since you don't say that they're suited, I'm assuming they are offsuit.

SSHE says: "...be prepared to fold all offsuit hands except AK to a raise. Reraise with AK."

But that is only in a situation where the pot's been raised--nothing's said about "raised and called."

If the caller had AA or KK, would he have reraised? I think those are the hands that worry you most. If your hand was suited, I think it's a harder decision.

[Mackerel]

I don't mind this play at all in this circumstance. AK is just nut no pair until it flops something, and you're a big dog to flop anything good enough to feel comfortable playing aggressively with if the uber-tight, already pissed, guy up front starts firing after the flop. But then again, I'm not as big a fan of AKo as a lot of people around here seem to be.

[MRBAA]

Yes, offsuit. Suited I play here. My thinking was that the range of hands the ep tight raiser could have would probably be AK, AQ, TT-AA. And the range of hands the caller could have would be 55-AA, AK-AJ (or maybe ATs/A9s), KQ. And there are three players still to act -- one very LAG.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE says: "...be prepared to fold all offsuit hands except AK to a raise. Reraise with AK."

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE is also a limit book, and as such, has absolutely nothing to do with proper NL play.

to the OP: too weak! call to see the flop at least. also, buy in deeper /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jonoo]

[ QUOTE ]
to the OP: too weak! call to see the flop at least. also, buy in deeper /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah what are you buying in $60 at a 1/2NL game for?

[MRBAA]

Experienced limit player. Learning n/l -- in part cause it's the often the only game available at nyc clubs. Low buy in lets me simplify the game while I"m learning.

Why do you think this is "too weak" s wolfe?

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE says

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE is also a Limit book.

I would have called, but I don't mind the fold at all. Chances are you are behind at least one of the players (and if original raiser is really "uber-tight" does he really have something like AQ? I think it's likely you are behind both.

[beekeeper]

My mistake about SSHE.

As I see it, you have to base your decision on long-term profitability and any intangibles you know about that game and those players. Even if you can't put one of them on a premium hand (AA-KK-AKs-QQ), considering how you describe the players, you almost have to put one of them on a premium hand. More importantly, you cannot know for certain that either one of them doesn't have a premium hand--in which case, you are going in a dog to at least one hand. That, coupled with the fact that you have a LAG to act after you, with a nice size pot, makes a call difficult.

I would fold--but I'm weaker and tighter than most 2+2ers. I don't see how you can call--I see your choices as raise or fold.

I'm still curious what you make of the second player's call.

[MRBAA]

I thought it was likely I was behind the original raiser. I could be ahead of the caller -- he was capable of calling with a small pair or hand like AJ here. My problem was, I had no idea how to play the flop if I made top pair. What if I get an A or K on the flop and the opener bets $50 (about a pot sized bet). Calling commits half my stack with "just" top pair.

[theben]

don't mind your weak play if the raiser really is 'uber tight'

[NYCNative]

The question here is would villain raise with anything less than AA or KK. If you think he would it's proper to call because it's at worst a coin toss. If he's got Queens and you hit TPTK on the flop, you have him beat. You can get away from the hand if you don't or if the players to act reraise and villain pushes but at least try and see a flop.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
The question here is would villain raise with anything less than AA or KK. If you think he would it's proper to call because it's at worst a coin toss. If he's got Queens and you hit TPTK on the flop, you have him beat. You can get away from the hand if you don't or if the players to act reraise and villain pushes but at least try and see a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no.

even if his hand range is AA-JJ and AKs here, the fold is still correct unless he has some kind of physical read on the player and plans to blow him off his hand when he's behind.

Also, consider what happens when QQ beats an AK that makes a pair. now consider what happens when QQ is beat by AK.

given the read, OP played it perfectly.

fim

[NYCNative]

I guess it's a leak in my game that I hope to see a flop with the 4th best hand in HE.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The question here is would villain raise with anything less than AA or KK. If you think he would it's proper to call because it's at worst a coin toss. If he's got Queens and you hit TPTK on the flop, you have him beat. You can get away from the hand if you don't or if the players to act reraise and villain pushes but at least try and see a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no.

even if his hand range is AA-JJ and AKs here, the fold is still correct unless he has some kind of physical read on the player and plans to blow him off his hand when he's behind.

Also, consider what happens when QQ beats an AK that makes a pair. now consider what happens when QQ is beat by AK.

given the read, OP played it perfectly.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

And furthermore, it's a coinflip only if it's heads up and you get to see all five cards against some pair below kings. But Hero is not just a coinflip b/c it's going to be at least a three way pot. And with Hero just calling, it's pretty much begging the blinds to come along for the ride. In a 4-5 way pot, A-K is real difficult to play. I don't think calling is bad, but I think there's a lot to be said for just folding and waiting for a better spot rather than potentially putting myself in a real difficult one. And if his read is that the original raiser has aces or kings, I think you have to trust that.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's a leak in my game that I hope to see a flop with the 4th best hand in HE.

[/ QUOTE ]

when your opponent's hand range is the #1-4 and #14 hand in holdem, it is a leak to call his PFR holding the #14 hand.

that's the first semi-correct thing you've said in this thread.

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's a leak in my game that I hope to see a flop with the 4th best hand in HE.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a leak in your game that you don't understand implied odds and reverse implied odds.

[Drizztdj]

I don't think its weak to buy-in short. But it certainly does not "simplify" the game. Unless you are an experience short-stack player of course.

[MRBAA]

Short stack clearly simplifies the game. I'm basically looking for strong hands, bet large preflop and get the rest in on the flop, with an edge on the likely holdings for opponents. I'm avoiding tricky turn and river situations and cutting the implied odds for opponents. I'm glad to see that my thinking on this hand was not far off.