KK- capped PF, facing capped flop

[flair1239]

Pty 5/10

MP1 is a bit rockish 14/3/2 WTSD 29% W$SD 56%, also his fold flop to a bet % is 65.

MP2 is Loose/AGG PF and Passive post flop. 27/10/1

Both samples are around 150-200 hands.

Hero has black kings.

PF: MP1 raises, MP2 3-bets, hero caps, both call

Flop: (13SB) J /images/graemlins/heart.gif t /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 caps, hero...

Take it from here, present plans for turn, and talk about cards you want to see.

[W. Deranged]

Folds.

Both of your opponents have shown tremendous strength here.

MP1 is a rock who still found it correct to check-raise three-bet here.

MP2 is a passive post-flop player who has been willing to lead into the pre-flop capper and then to cap behind the check-raise three-bettor.

You are looking at 11-1 on a call to see the turn, and much, much shorter effective odds on a call down here, particularly as I imagine a few more than minimum bets may go in here on future streets. If it's one BB on each street, you are looking at a number in the neighborhood of 5-1 on a call down.

You have very little chance to improve to beat AA or a set, and you still are vulnerable to other hands that could be in play.

I think that this flop opportunity is clearly the best opportunity to get out against these rocky players. Calling the two cold here is, in my opinion, pretty much committing to calling down all the way (or maybe getting more aggressive later, though I think most further aggression against this line-up will be spewing). You do not have the odds/implied odds to play for set value here.

Against the players in question I don't see you being ahead here 12% of the time or so, which is about what you would need to merit a call down not expecting any further bets going in. You are beaten in at least one direction here by a set or AA the large majority of the time here, and I would not be surprised if both your opponents were beating you here. Remember, an opponent with PFR of 3 raising probably has AA-JJ or AA-TT, plus AK... an opponent with PFR of 3 raising and then check-raise/three-betting the flop does not have AK. You get the idea.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that this flop opportunity is clearly the best opportunity to get out against these rocky players.

[/ QUOTE ]

[flair1239]

Excellent.

I will cutshort this discussion then. That is what I did, folded.

I made sure that I did not watch the showdown between these two. It was toward the end of my session so I would not have benefited much from seeing the showdown. Plus, it probably would have tilted me to be wrong.

But as I saw it, the only hand the rock could have that he plays like that, that I beat would be QQ.

I have been working on making decsions like this (not looking to fold big pots, but recognising when I am beat, and not wasting call downs).

Thank you for the responses.

[W. Deranged]

Flair,

That's exactly the point. The odds that somehow your two opponents are on exactly AJ and QQ or something like that is just so tiny that you really can't proceed here.