Theory Musing: HE with 22 people

[NYCNative]

My mind was wandering the other day and it occured to me that 22 people could be dealt a HE hand and the remaining cards would make for a flop, turn, river and three burn cards.

I wonder if we were to play at this hypothetical table what kind of strategy we would have to have. My guess is that since it is exceedingly difficult for a hand to improve, pocket pairs would be considered huge and any Ace would be a monster as well and even something like KQs - a decenty holding at a 6 Max table and even not horrible at a ten-person table would be a horrible hand to have, quite unlikely to improve to beat the pocket deuces someone else had or even the weak Ace.

How would you play this game? Assuming you had to play, that is? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Is there any skill involved here or just waiting for good hole cards and hoping not to get unlucky?

[benneh]

im going to run some simulation 22handed hold em and get back to you.

[nervous]

I might be completely wrong on this, but wouldn't your hand have the same chance of improving no matter how many people are in since you count all other cards as "unknown" and its still 5 random cards out of the deck on the board?

[stigmata]

Each hand has the same chance of improving whether it is 6 or 20 handed. However, with more people in the pot, the average hand at showdown will be better.

Therefore, drawing hands (suited connectors and pocket pairs) are going to go up in value (as there will be more volume pots) with more players. This is similar to the distinction between low/high stakes.

Also, I think preflop equity is going to be reduced with most hands, so limping will be more often correct than a 10 handed game.

[Tilt]

My thoughts:

* Good drawing hands become much stronger. Position becomes even more important when drawing, however.

* TPTK becomes almost useless.

* With good hand reading/people reading skills you can predict turn and river odds more accurately.

* Is this limit? Otherwise the stacks have to be really deep or it will become an all-in fest pretty quick.

* You need a huge table. And it better have a slick surface so the dealer can skim the cards across it. Otherwise his back is going to get really sore.

[AaronBrown]

I agree with nervous that your chance of improving is the same regardless of the number of players. But I think NYCNative meant your chance of improving to be the best hand.

I agree that you have to throw away all KQ. What good is a King when you're probably facing three or four Aces? Sure you could pair it up on the board, but you can pair any card. Even Aces aren't good, A2 is probably beaten by three or four other hands. I'd want AJ or better, even then I know I'm probably facing a pair.

I disagree that pocket pairs are huge. What good is a pair of 2's when you're probably facing a higher pair? You need at least 9's to expect to have the highest pair.

Playing suited hands or connectors is not worth it. You're not going to get enough callers to pay when you hit it. With one or two hands starting with pairs, there's too much chance of a full house.

Therefore, I think it would be a dull game played properly. Opening under the gun, or in any early position, would require a top pair. Once someone opened this way, only something like AA or KK would make sense to play. That person would raise and the opener would fold unless he held AA. If no one had AA or KK, the opener would take the pot.

In mid position, people would start opening AK or TT. That allows the possibility of someone coming in with a raise and that raise being called. But that wouldn't happen often.

In late position, the game gets more interesting. Effectively you're back to a normal table size. You have a little more information about the cards outstanding, but not much.

Of course, people could bluff, but this is not a smart move when you need only one out of twenty-one people to feel like calling. It's probably true that six or seven out of any twenty-two players will feel the need to see the flop out of curiousity or hot flashes, but you don't want to go against them without a top pair.

[sully4321]

[ QUOTE ]
I might be completely wrong on this, but wouldn't your hand have the same chance of improving no matter how many people are in since you count all other cards as "unknown" and its still 5 random cards out of the deck on the board?

[/ QUOTE ]

he's completely right

[sully4321]

on another note, i would HATE being dealt aces

[phish]

Big pairs remain valuable, but only if you flop a set.

Axs goes way up in value.

Hands like KJs, QJs and JTs are still good, some of the lower suited connectors more valuable for their straight possibilities than their flush ones.

Middle pocket pairs are still good.

What drops in value are the big non-suited cards like AK, AQ.

Post-flop play will need to change dramatically. Need to think about it like Omaha: pairs are of no use, drawing hands are oftentimes more powerful than made hands, redraws become very valuable. Be very wary when not drawing to the nuts (for example a jack high flush draw).

[spaminator101]

youd have to play much tighter

[spaminator101]

more like i would hate being dealt any hand

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
youd have to play much tighter

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you wouldn't. You have 21 other players to payoff the gutshot straight you hit with 64s. In LP, you might be getting 15:1+ on your money to call. Why be tight?

It would be a stupd game, though, because it would be all about hitting the nuts and praying it holds.

[spaminator101]

ok pre flop you wouldnt be stupid because it would take a very good hand to beat all the others so few ppl would enter the pot few ppl equals low implied odds

[bobbyi]

It would resemble Omaha with two cards. Preflop, you want to play hands that can make the nuts and postflop you want to be drawing to the nuts. For example, suited aces are great. Pocket deuces is not so great because bottom set will be a trouble hand like in PLO.

[spaminator101]

didnt think of it like that